Who should stay, who should go

[69MG]

I think this year's recruiting class (high school, JuCo and portal) will tell us a lot about our near-term future. We are now in the MAC and we are coming off a horrid season. Let's see who is willing to play for UMass and for Frank, and maybe how much NIL will it take?

Obviously, we can't evaluate talent like the coaches can (I can hear the snickers already), so I'll base it on what other recent offers the recruit had. Who did we beat out to get a player?

[NilesGold]

Money will matter up to a point, but it is not the be all, end all.

Setting aside who the coach is, if UMass can offer someone $100k, and Toledo can offer $50k, 9 times out of 10 that kid is picking UMass.

[eldonabe]

Money will matter up to a point, but it is not the be all, end all.

Setting aside who the coach is, if UMass can offer someone $100k, and Toledo can offer $50k, 9 times out of 10 that kid is picking UMass.

Yay - we are stealing other MAC talent. Niles, we want better than MAC talent.

[Juice Stand]

Since UMass is going to be handling the bulk of NIL going forward, will their NIL contracts be made available publicly?

*Eldon, the top talent in the MAC is legit. There are real dudes playing in that league and when they eventually transfer, plenty of them end up being contributors on big time teams. Just because the league overall is less than ideal, it doesn't mean the whole thing is garbage.

*Edited after reading Eldon's recent post.

[NilesGold]

Money will matter up to a point, but it is not the be all, end all.

Setting aside who the coach is, if UMass can offer someone $100k, and Toledo can offer $50k, 9 times out of 10 that kid is picking UMass.

Yay - we are stealing other MAC talent. Niles, we want better than MAC talent.

We’re talking about what’s a reasonable MAC finish for UMass, so is it not relevant to discuss how UMass’ recruiting would compare to the other MAC schools?

I’m trying to make sense of the fact that you think MAC talent sucks, but UMass finishing top 8 is a success… how can you possibly think anything less than top 4 is not a huge indictment of Frank Martin as a coach?

[PreecherJenkins]

Setting aside who the coach is, if UMass can offer someone $100k, and Toledo can offer $50k, 9 times out of 10 that kid is picking UMass.

Yay - we are stealing other MAC talent. Niles, we want better than MAC talent.

We’re talking about what’s a reasonable MAC finish for UMass, so is it not relevant to discuss how UMass’ recruiting would compare to the other MAC schools?

I’m trying to make sense of the fact that you think MAC talent sucks, but UMass finishing top 8 is a success… how can you possibly think anything less than top 4 is not a huge indictment of Frank Martin as a coach?

Niles:

It is can Frank the GM bring in a top 4 talented team. Frank the coach seems fine, its Frank the roster builder that is LEAVING a lot on the table.

[inthescoop]

Yay - we are stealing other MAC talent. Niles, we want better than MAC talent.

We’re talking about what’s a reasonable MAC finish for UMass, so is it not relevant to discuss how UMass’ recruiting would compare to the other MAC schools?

I’m trying to make sense of the fact that you think MAC talent sucks, but UMass finishing top 8 is a success… how can you possibly think anything less than top 4 is not a huge indictment of Frank Martin as a coach?

Niles:

It is can Frank the GM bring in a top 4 talented team. Frank the coach seems fine, its Frank the roster builder that is LEAVING a lot on the table.

^Some would argue that the coaching was even worse than the roster building this season.

also, why is leaving capitalized

[minutefanjsf]

There are definitely kids who want to play in certain regions/schools who know their ceiling. There are also kids who have and definitely still want to play in the A10. Money, school, and coach all still matter. UMass has a coach that can attract players and some money. We don’t have the school reputation/culture.

Let me see if I have this right… you think there are kids who desire to play in the MAC specifically, and furthermore they would rather play for less NIL $ at one of the Midwest MAC schools than UMass (coach preference not factored in)?

So your claim is that if you take out the coach, UMass is in a worse position to attract players than the other MAC schools… do I have that right?

To a degree, yes. There are many Midwest players who only know the Big Ten and MAC. Those that know they are only good enough for the MAC will choose Akron over UMass due to familiarity. Of course money matters, just like it did for guys who left UMass to head to the P4 leagues. Coaching matters more, IMO. Obviously if money is difference to a degree of 2x, 3x, etc. that could sway a player. Frank Martin has gotten guys to come to UMass and or stay for less $ as long as it wasn’t a multiple, etc. over the last two years.

[pk77]

interesting poll results, so far over 75% think Bamford needs to go, why doesn't the university see this !!

[eldonabe]

Setting aside who the coach is, if UMass can offer someone $100k, and Toledo can offer $50k, 9 times out of 10 that kid is picking UMass.

Yay - we are stealing other MAC talent. Niles, we want better than MAC talent.

We’re talking about what’s a reasonable MAC finish for UMass, so is it not relevant to discuss how UMass’ recruiting would compare to the other MAC schools?

I’m trying to make sense of the fact that you think MAC talent sucks, but UMass finishing top 8 is a success… how can you possibly think anything less than top 4 is not a huge indictment of Frank Martin as a coach?

Who said less than top 4 wasn't an indictment? I guess I am not being clear enough.


- Yes - MAC talent sucks - they are in the bottom 3rd of Conference NET rankings (by NET Umass would have been 6th in that conference this year)
- This team stinks
- This coach did an absolutely shitty job this year - they play shabby (inconsistent at best) defense, run no discernable offense and cannot shoot for shit
- This coach hates the new NIL environment and has done nothing IMO to embrace it
- I don't care if they have more money to spend than everyone else in the conference - they have already proven they suck at this (and their coach hates it).

- Do you think that a coach who openly hates NIL is not letting that attitude seep into his daily routines with his players? We can already see the way he demeans and rips kids on the sidelines during games.
- Do you think that players getting paid do not think they need to take that shit from their coach and will just move on if they are any good? And if they are not any good - well, then they stink and we are stuck with them.
- Do you think UMass is going to be able to attract and schedule a Non-Con schedule strong enough (never mind actually win those games) to be anything but an afterthought in D1 basketball now?
- Money is going to attract players, but not at the level you seem to be assuming it to be. Please read the next part slowly......

Having the most money ONLY means you can spend more, it does not automatically mean you can also buy the best. Again, MAC basketball is not good. Umass is not going to attract anything more than MAC level talent because any player worth a decent payday that Umass can offer is also going to be worth that to a better conference and Umass will lose out to all of those teams. At best, Frank may compile a decent team once in a while - but he himself knows (and has admitted) that his style is not for the one and done player; even if he gets a kid that develops into a great player in year 1, that kids is gone.

BYU was able to pull off that ridiculous payday because they are in the Big 12 - if they were still in the Mountain West or Mid West (or wherever they were) that kid is going to P5 - not BYU.

UMass is not going to magically turn into the Gonzaga of the MAC. So - to me - YES. Umass being good enough to make the conference tournament regardless of 1st or 8th next year is a positive.



As for Frank, Frank's three years here are already an indictment on Frank. He already "took a step backwards" and underachieved - he himself admitted he took the conference too lightly. He has said nothing that makes me think he is taking the MAC seriously so far this time around either. To pile on to this disaster, Bamford is fucking inept which leads me to believe that even with a $100 Million NIL payroll his athletic department would still fuck this up.

Given all these circumstances - YES - just making the MAC Conference tournament would be a positive.

[eldonabe]

interesting poll results, so far over 75% think Bamford needs to go, why doesn't the university see this !!

I can only assume that is a rhetorical question?

[NilesGold]

Who said less than top 4 wasn't an indictment? I guess I am not being clear enough.


- Yes - MAC talent sucks - they are in the bottom 3rd of Conference NET rankings (by NET Umass would have been 6th in that conference this year)
- This team stinks
- This coach did an absolutely shitty job this year - they play shabby (inconsistent at best) defense, run no discernable offense and cannot shoot for shit
- This coach hates the new NIL environment and has done nothing IMO to embrace it
- I don't care if they have more money to spend than everyone else in the conference - they have already proven they suck at this (and their coach hates it).

- Do you think that a coach who openly hates NIL is not letting that attitude seep into his daily routines with his players? We can already see the way he demeans and rips kids on the sidelines during games.
- Do you think that players getting paid do not think they need to take that shit from their coach and will just move on if they are any good? And if they are not any good - well, then they stink and we are stuck with them.
- Do you think UMass is going to be able to attract and schedule a Non-Con schedule strong enough (never mind actually win those games) to be anything but an afterthought in D1 basketball now?
- Money is going to attract players, but not at the level you seem to be assuming it to be. Please read the next part slowly......

Having the most money ONLY means you can spend more, it does not automatically mean you can also buy the best. Again, MAC basketball is not good. Umass is not going to attract anything more than MAC level talent because any player worth a decent payday that Umass can offer is also going to be worth that to a better conference and Umass will lose out to all of those teams. At best, Frank may compile a decent team once in a while - but he himself knows (and has admitted) that his style is not for the one and done player; even if he gets a kid that develops into a great player in year 1, that kids is gone.

BYU was able to pull off that ridiculous payday because they are in the Big 12 - if they were still in the Mountain West or Mid West (or wherever they were) that kid is going to P5 - not BYU.

UMass is not going to magically turn into the Gonzaga of the MAC. So - to me - YES. Umass being good enough to make the conference tournament regardless of 1st or 8th next year is a positive.



As for Frank, Frank's three years here are already an indictment on Frank. He already "took a step backwards" and underachieved - he himself admitted he took the conference too lightly. He has said nothing that makes me think he is taking the MAC seriously so far this time around either. To pile on to this disaster, Bamford is fucking inept which leads me to believe that even with a $100 Million NIL payroll his athletic department would still fuck this up.

Given all these circumstances - YES - just making the MAC Conference tournament would be a positive.

If I understand you correctly, UMass, Bamford, and Frank suck and they're going to fuck everything up, which is why you are saying "just making the MAC tournament would be a positive".

I think Frank will be top 8, but I'm not really willing to even make that sound like a positive thing as I think it sets the bar too low to be content... I think any decent coach in Frank's role should be expected to finish top 3 next year or better.

As for NIL and attracting players, UMass will probably continue competing with other A10 schools more than they compete with MAC schools. With NIL on the table the prestige of the A10 is just not much of a factor anymore. For any player trying to decide between UMass and URI, I just don't think they're going to care much one way or the other about A10 or MAC... they'll care about NIL $ and the coach.

[eldonabe]

If I understand you correctly, UMass, Bamford, and Frank suck and they're going to fuck everything up, which is why you are saying "just making the MAC tournament would be a positive".

I think Frank will be top 8, but I'm not really willing to even make that sound like a positive thing as I think it sets the bar too low to be content... I think any decent coach in Frank's role should be expected to finish top 3 next year or better.

As for NIL and attracting players, UMass will probably continue competing with other A10 schools more than they compete with MAC schools. With NIL on the table the prestige of the A10 is just not much of a factor anymore. For any player trying to decide between UMass and URI, I just don't think they're going to care much one way or the other about A10 or MAC... they'll care about NIL $ and the coach.

We are cool.... these are merely our opinions. The best thing is that we will get to see in real time what happens.


I would just like to point out the A-10 may be "down" but they are still a top 10 NET conference - #7 to be exact (which is also improved from last year). Umass was the 12th ranked team in NET in their conference. MAC was #23 last year and this year. Umass' top 8 NET teams would represent 8 of the top 9 if they were all in MAC.

I may certainly end up being wrong, but if a kid is only chasing the money - then yes, we can and should win those recruiting battles as the highest bidder when you are not talking P5 teams on the other end. There is some algebra in there that neither of us probably understand though and that is where I start losing faith real quick.

Just because we may be competing with A-10 teams for Recruits, I think that recruiting against them as a member of MAC is going to play a roll in there somewhere. Those Stats I cited above do not lie. And of course - the "they will fuck this up" part .


This will be an interesting experiment to watch play out.

[Juice Stand]

Question on the recruiting side of the MAC move, maybe this is better for the recruiting thread but I think it's relevant to this discussion.

I've heard a lot that we will be competing with MAC schools for recruits and that we will have to recruit the MAC region. Why is that the case? Why can't we continue to recruit the northeast, New Jersey, DMV areas like we have in the past? I understand that we'll probably be looking at lower caliber players, but why would we have to suddenly change our recruiting footprint just because we're going to play less than half of our games out there (1/2 our conference games and presumably very little OOC if any).

[NilesGold]

I've heard a lot that we will be competing with MAC schools for recruits and that we will have to recruit the MAC region. Why is that the case? Why can't we continue to recruit the northeast, New Jersey, DMV areas like we have in the past? I understand that we'll probably be looking at lower caliber players, but why would we have to suddenly change our recruiting footprint just because we're going to play less than half of our games out there (1/2 our conference games and presumably very little OOC if any).

You are correct, we'll probably be competing with other MAC schools rarely, due primarily to having a much larger NIL pool and a different geography than most of them.

Based on the $1M-1.5M NIL number I've heard, my assumption is that will put us at the upper end vs A10 schools and at the top vs other MAC schools... so if NIL is a major factor (I think it is) our recruiting has a good chance to be better going forward than it has been.