Fire DACKO?

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Should dacko be fired?

Poll ended at Tue Dec 20, 2005 10:26 pm

Yes absolutely....RIGHT NOW
10
30%
Yes but after the season
11
33%
No keep her
12
36%
 
Total votes: 33

99umass20
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Perspective from former player

Post by 99umass20 » Fri Dec 16, 2005 4:55 am

First of all I would like to say, excellent post, Skip, I couldn't have said it better myself.

Second, the last time I tried to get in a discussion about this, I got raked over the coals. I am going to put in my two cents on the matter now, and if others want to have a rational discussion about this, I'll join in. Otherwise, if I take the same abuse for defending a program that I helped to build, this will be my final post on the women's board. As you can see from my post total, I don't post that often, but I read the board daily and I do still follow my alma mater closely.

Where do I start? Well, I'll start by echoing skip. It is time to stop blaming Joanie for the losing seasons that Dacko has racked up. I can understand if you want to use that excuse maybe the first and second years, but this is her fourth year. HER players are juniors by now, they should be producing, that has nothing to do with Joanie and how many recruits she left behind. You all are so quick to jump on Joanie for what she didn't leave behind in terms of recruiting information, but as I saw mentioned by someone else, do you think Lappas left anything behind for Ford? Do you really think Bruiser left all his prized recruits gift wrapped for Lappas when he knew he was going to be canned? If you do, you are sadly mistaken. When you look at the Joanie and Bruiser situations, they were both treated very poorly in their final years, both by members of the administration and by "fans" and "supporters." I can understand their actions, although I might not exactly condone them. Marnie was a DI coach before she got to UMass, albeit the Ivy League, she still would have attended some of the same recruiting events as Joanie and her staff and would have seen some of the same girls play. Also, when Joanie left, she left Marnie with 7 seniors, 7 pretty good seniors. She had All-American candidate Jen Butler, a 1000 point scorer in Nekole Smith and Sneed and Pegues were solid players. I'm sorry, but I don't consider that leaving the cupboard bare as I have heard Dacko refer to it at times. There's no reason that team did not have a winning record. And Marnie was quick to take credit for Butler getting drafted to the WNBA, but Joanie (and assistant coach Jill Rooney) had a good hand in that the 3 years before as well.

I saw someone say that it's difficult to turn a program around in 3 years. Let me bring this to the table. The year before Joanie got to UMass, the team was 0-27. Let me say that again--0-27!!! What do you think her cupboard looked like in her first season?!?! In 3-4 short years, she had a winning record and was challenging for the A-10 title. In my freshman year, her first winning season, we made it to the WNIT--should have made the NCAA if we wouldn't have lost to WVU in the first round of the A-10 tourney. The next year, we were in the NCAA and two years later we won the East title, hosted the Final Four of the A-10 tourney and went to another NCAA tournament. We were just a few points away from playing UConn in that first NCAA tournament, and that was quite possibly the best team ever to play at UMass. If it weren't for injuries to key players throughout my 5 years, although I don't use that as an excuse, I have no doubt that we would have been to the NCAA tournament in each of my 5 years on the team.

What really bothers me about the whole deal is, with everyone quick to jump to Marnie's defense and quick to talk down on Joanie, the great teams that she produced during her time have been all but forgotten. On the men's thread, everyone reminises about the 95-96 team that went to the Final Four. Well, that year was also the first year that the women's team made the NCAA tournament, but so soon we forget. In Joanie's tenure she produced 8-1,000 point scorers, countless all-conference players, and she graduated her players (not that that should be any issue in women's basketball). I haven't been to Mullins in a while, but there is/was only one banner hanging in the rafters for women's basketball and that was the 95-96 NCAA tourny banner. I don't know that there is one up there from our East title in 97-98 and our tourney appearance that year. If there is, that's great and I apologize. If they are not up there, then that really bothers me. Half the people that speak of Joanie on this board and praise and feel sorry for Marnie probably couldn't name 3-4 members of either of those teams, those aren't fans to me.

Some of the people that talk about how bad Joanie was for the UMass program have NO idea what they are talking about. If you weren't there, you have absolutely no right to say anything about it. And if you weren't there, but you THINK you know because of something you heard from someone else, you still have NO idea! And no, I'm not going to enlighten everyone with everything that happened within our team, because that was/is my family and that's no one else's business. We went through a lot the entire 5 years I was there--some bad times, but there were a lot of great times too. There are only 2 bad things that linger in my mind and that is the lawsuit and Joanie being let go her last year. Other than that, I have nothing but fond memories of my time at UMass.

I have never tried to hide my identity and I'm sure some of you know who I am, so you know that I am a credible individual. As I said, I am more than willing to have a CIVIL conversation about this, but if I start to feel like I have to defend everything I'm saying, I will not post on this board ever again. It would be a shame if it came to that because I think it is great what Mike is doing for the UMass program and I only wish that people would get more involved and be more supportive on this particular board, instead of looking for a scapegoat because the team is not winning.

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Post by 99umass20 » Fri Dec 16, 2005 5:03 am

"I have been following the program for the past four years and to be honest, it's almost time for Dacko to go. UMass has never had a successful women's program and Dacko isn't doing anything to change that. In her first season as head coach she did OK with the best player in UMass history (Jen Butler) after that she fell off by a lot."

Case in point--crooksisrhyming. UMass, in the 90's was very close to becoming a nationally ranked team, and we were VERY successful. We defeated Stanford (who went to the final four that year and that previous year), lost by only 10 points to LA Tech (their closest home game of the season) and lost to Michigan State in OT in the first round of the NCAA tournament, so you might want to read up on your history before you say that UMass was never successful in women's basketball. My entire 5 years, we never finished below .500, in fact my senior year (98-99)is the last winning record that has been produced. While Jen Butler was a great player and was drafted by the WNBA, I don't think she is the best player in history. I give that distinction to Octavia Thomas, and anyone who has seen her play would attest to that. At "media guide" 5-9, she rebounded like she was 6-3 and could score in every way imagineable (except from the 3pt line! :D ). The WNBA was not alive when she graduated, but had it been, she would have been drafted, I guarantee that. Melissa Gurile was actually with the Phoenix team in the first year of the WNBA as well.

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Post by 99umass20 » Fri Dec 16, 2005 6:40 am

ktabz16 wrote:let me qualify my post by saying that i have never attended a women's college basketball game... i do however, have the ability to compare men's w/ women's... trying to compare the two are not fair... there are many more blue chip men's recruits... that is why the best women's programs beat good mid majors by 60 or 70 points... i would say it is a little too early to call for her head... give her till the end of next year to show signs of improvement, then if it hasn't happened, respectfully let her go... to be selfish, let me nominate anna kinne as a replacement... an assistant at holy cross who played there and led them as point guard to i believe 4 ncaa tournament berths.. she also happens to be the best female athlete ever to come out of my high school... she also scored 50+ points in a game which happened to be in the western mass finals which was held in the mullins center, which is a record for most points scored in a game in the building by a male or female.... just my two cents
ktab--having played with and worked camps at Holy Cross with Anna Kinne, I can tell yout that she is no longer an assistant at Holy Cross. From what I have heard, she left to pursue opportunities outside of coaching. That said, even though I have the utmost respect for Anna, she would not be a candidate to be the head coach at UMass, not this early in her career (if she were still coaching). Yes, she was an excellent player and she has basketball in her blood, but she would not be ready to take on the responsibility that being a head coach, at a mid-major conference, would require.

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Post by Used to be VOR » Fri Dec 16, 2005 8:36 am

Tez,

I worked with Joanie on a few different levels while she was here. I am still very good friends with one member of her staff. I really liked Joanie as a person, and there is no question she hadd a great deal of success while she was here. However, also having a friend who was involved in that lawsuit, I must say that I did lose a lot of respect for her. I did not agree with all aspects of the suit, but needless to say Joanie bears some responsibility for what happened with those players.

I feel that the damage Joanie did was two-fold. First, I could care less if she left behind any of the recruiting materials...as you stated that happens all the time in the NCAA. My problem is that there was no recruiting done at all that last year. You mention Lappas, he kept recruiting his last year. He signed a decent player (even though he left). Joanie made no attempt to sign anyone. She made a conscious decision that knowing it was her last year she was going to torch the place on the way out. I think that is a major issue.

Secondly, right or wrong the lawsuits and scandal that came out did damage to this program. It took a good number of years before the stigma of those accusations went away.

As far as Marnie goes, I think this season needs to play itself out. On a game-to-game basis every coach should be open to crtiticism...Marnie included. And if this year turns out to be a complete disaster I think it is fair to start questioning the direction. But, at least for me, I want to see how this year turns out.

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Post by CrooksisRhyming » Fri Dec 16, 2005 9:08 am

99umass20 wrote: Case in point--crooksisrhyming. UMass, in the 90's was very close to becoming a nationally ranked team, and we were VERY successful. We defeated Stanford (who went to the final four that year and that previous year), lost by only 10 points to LA Tech (their closest home game of the season) and lost to Michigan State in OT in the first round of the NCAA tournament, so you might want to read up on your history before you say that UMass was never successful in women's basketball. My entire 5 years, we never finished below .500, in fact my senior year (98-99)is the last winning record that has been produced. While Jen Butler was a great player and was drafted by the WNBA, I don't think she is the best player in history. I give that distinction to Octavia Thomas, and anyone who has seen her play would attest to that. At "media guide" 5-9, she rebounded like she was 6-3 and could score in every way imagineable (except from the 3pt line! :D ). The WNBA was not alive when she graduated, but had it been, she would have been drafted, I guarantee that. Melissa Gurile was actually with the Phoenix team in the first year of the WNBA as well.
In my history book, I look at the overall scheme of things rather than a few winning seasons with a NCAA bid tossed into the mix. As far as the best player, that is subjective as well... perhaps if Butler didn't get injured we wouldn't be having this conversation. Bottom line... the UMass women's basketball program is not a historically successful one. It seems to me that the two of us are talking about the same thing. I appreciate whatever insight you may have and it appears that we both think it's time for a change. :wink:
"Wherever I go, I’ll never be bashful about being from UMass, baby.” -Victor Cruz

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Post by 99umass20 » Fri Dec 16, 2005 9:16 am

Vor--thank you for being civil about this. I'm not saying in any way, shape or form that I totally agree with everything that Joanie ever said or did. And I can understand why some are upset. The ones that upset me are the people who weren't around during the Joanie years, they have just "heard" that she is/was an awful person and they have jumped on the Marnie bandwagon. We had a pretty good history going there in the 90's and it saddens me that basically, my (and my former teammate's) college career has been rendered non-existent because of how ugly things got towards the end of Joanie's career. People don't realize how close we were to having a national presence. I just want people to move on and get over what happened in the past and just support the program for heaven's sake.

Now, while I still follow the team, I don't fully agree with how things have transpired. When Marnie and her staff first came to Amherst, I tried my best to put my feelings behind and tried to get to know them and stay actively involved with the program. I was living in North Adams at the time and I read many of the articles and interviews about her and it angered me. I understand she felt Joanie gave her the shaft with how she handled her recruiting (or lack thereof) her final year, but she continually harped on that in her first few seasons and she still does. At some point she has to be held accountable for the fact that they are not winning. The NCAA has become a business, as much as we hate to admit it, it's all about money these days in men's and women's basketball and football. The deal with not putting 100% in recruiting when you know you are about to be fired, right or wrong, happens all the time. But I don't hear any of the other coaches in the country who were left in similar situations talking about it repeatedly to any newspaper that will listen and print it. I just feel like the good things that the program did during Joanie's reign have been pushed aside, like we didn't even exist and that's bothersome to me. The program was not in dire straits when Joanie left. Every program has a few off years when they have to rebuild or reload, but it is way beyond that point at UMass right now and I hate to see it.

Thank you for your thoughts, Vor, I appreciate the discussion.

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Post by 99umass20 » Fri Dec 16, 2005 9:19 am

Vor, in regards to the lawsuit, I have been kept up to speed on the ongoing process with Nicky Vallieres and I can tell you that some of the things that have come out of that are downright crazy. I have heard of physical abuse, to which I have to laugh. Some of the players brought on some of their problems themselves, but no one has ever questioned any of the things they did that lead up to the lawsuit. The 3 involved were not exactly the angels that many on this board believe them to be. But that's all I have to say about that right now.

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Post by 99umass20 » Fri Dec 16, 2005 9:21 am

yeah, ktab, I was pretty surprised to hear that she left Holy Cross. She would have been my pick to take over the reigns at HC when Coach Gibbons decided to hang it up. With his health problems this year, she would have been the logical choice to keep the team together in his absence. She definitely knows her basketball, I'll say that, and she was fun to play with.

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Post by Used to be VOR » Fri Dec 16, 2005 9:56 am

I know Nicki as well. I always tried to avoid discussing the lawsuit, because I never fully agreed with it...and thought there were better ways to handle things.

My take (without naming names) was that Joanie had a player who she liked very much who had major off the court issues (theft, drugs) and she saw a lot in the kid and cut her a lot of slack. There were other players who had similar infractions who were treated very differently. That caused a lot of problems and I think played a key role in how things ended up.

Also, as things got rough with the administration I saw a change in Joanie. She was always tough, but to me she became bitter. That effected her coaching and her recruiting. To me the change was tangible and was sad to see because down deep I think Joanie is a very nice person. I have not spoken to her in a long time but I hope she has gotten back to being more of herself now that she is away from that situation.

As far as your team goes, I could not agree more. I was at a lot of your games and you guys deserve a lot of respect for what you accomplished. Anyone who pays attention knows about those years and looks back upon them fondly.

I also agree 100% about how college athkletics is a business at the DI level and every coach is accountable. Although we may differ in what kind of shape the program was in when Marnie got here, all that matters in the end is results...and I hope we see that with this coach. If not we will have to rebuild again...and that could be painful.

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Post by 99umass20 » Fri Dec 16, 2005 10:10 am

I agree with most of what you said, VOR. I know to whom you are referring and that situation could have been handled a lot better, I do agree with that. With that said, I don't understand how you can bring a lawsuit alleging all of these other things if you simply are upset because your situation was not handled in the same manner as someone else's. But I think you and I both agree on that as well.

Joanie did become bitter, and for good reason I think. I think she felt everyone had turned on her towards the end and I think if any of us were in her shoes, we might have changed a little too. She put up with a lot of crap, beginning my senior year (lawsuit) up until her contract was not renewed. A person can only take so much and you snap at some point. She was able to move on at Auburn, but now with this lawsuit still hanging over her head, unresolved, it's not easy for her to get a coaching job now and that's unfortunate. She is one of the greatest basketball minds I have ever come into contact with and Jill was the recruiting guru during my time. I still speak to her on a regular basis and she is genuinely happy and spending lots of time with her family. I don't think she' s done coaching, but only time will tell when she gets back in the game.

For those that don't know any other side of Joanie, she is a very caring individual. She still cares about what happens to those of us that played for her and she would do anything for us, as she did when we played for her. She was one of the first people I called when I found out my dad had cancer earlier this year. When I had to choose a mentor for my MBA program, I asked Joanie. When I get married, Joanie will be invited to my wedding. I still have the utmost respect for her and I wish people would not judge her on how things went down her last few years. She made some mistakes, I think we can all admit that, but we all deserve the benefit of the doubt until we have been in their shoes.

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dacko must go

Post by umassbasketball » Fri Dec 16, 2005 10:11 am

With most of their top players back this season, you would think that the team would improve off their almost .500 season of last year. Mills and Rosanio are top notch league players and there is talent on that squad to beat teams from opponent conferences (Colonial, America East, MAAC). This year has been a total disappointment and this team continues to struggle. Other A-10 schools went out and got solid head coaches in the last five years and are reaping the benefits (Xavier, Richmond, Temple). Take a clue and get someone here who the players will respect and actually want to commit to. Our recent recruiting class is terrible and we are losing recruits because no one wants to play for Dacko and that staff. GET A CLUE AND GET RID OF DACKO

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Post by MullinsManiac » Sat Dec 17, 2005 1:55 pm

As I said earlier, we've reached the point where we can't blame Joanie anymore for Dacko's inability to bring in quality recruits. From what I've been reading, she's followed the Steve Lappas philosophy of recruiting, going up against the Central Connecticuts and Sacred Hearts of the world who can't compete in the A-10.

I gave HWSNBN 2 1/2 years before I came to the conclusion that it just wasn't working. So how long does Dacko get?
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Post by Umass_Minuteman » Sat Dec 17, 2005 4:02 pm

MullinsManiac wrote:As I said earlier, we've reached the point where we can't blame Joanie anymore for Dacko's inability to bring in quality recruits. From what I've been reading, she's followed the Steve Lappas philosophy of recruiting, going up against the Central Connecticuts and Sacred Hearts of the world who can't compete in the A-10.

I gave HWSNBN 2 1/2 years before I came to the conclusion that it just wasn't working. So how long does Dacko get?
I think we need to give her until the end of next year.

Would like to mention that with my post this topic has reached its third page of discussion. If as much interest was put into going to see the Woman's Basketball games as arguing about thier coach, the team, with the incrased fan support, might be better. Thus there would be no need to argue about Dacko.
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Post by CrooksisRhyming » Sat Dec 17, 2005 6:44 pm

Umass_Minuteman wrote:
MullinsManiac wrote:As I said earlier, we've reached the point where we can't blame Joanie anymore for Dacko's inability to bring in quality recruits. From what I've been reading, she's followed the Steve Lappas philosophy of recruiting, going up against the Central Connecticuts and Sacred Hearts of the world who can't compete in the A-10.

I gave HWSNBN 2 1/2 years before I came to the conclusion that it just wasn't working. So how long does Dacko get?
I think we need to give her until the end of next year.

Would like to mention that with my post this topic has reached its third page of discussion. If as much interest was put into going to see the Woman's Basketball games as arguing about thier coach, the team, with the incrased fan support, might be better. Thus there would be no need to argue about Dacko.

The only arguement about their following is that they should be playing in the Cage and I think girls on the team would agree with that. I'm not trying to be sexist in any way, shape, or form, but when I watched them play in the Cage against Vermont, then Syracuse the year after, the scenwe was much better and exciting for watching basketball. I also think students will be more likely to see a game when all they have to do is stumble past the Cage, rather than walk all the way to the Mullins.

As far as arguing about Dacko... there should be a discussion. If there was no discussion about her, or her job, after her poor showing these past four years, one would think that no one cared about the team. I semi-agree that she needs another year with HER players and team, but I also wouldn't lose much sleep if they fired her after this season.
"Wherever I go, I’ll never be bashful about being from UMass, baby.” -Victor Cruz

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Post by ElGuapo Hoy » Sun Dec 18, 2005 11:22 pm

The only arguement about their following is that they should be playing in the Cage and I think girls on the team would agree with that.
Totally agree. It's such a better place to watch a game with a smaller crowd. Coach D should play all her games there and then begin to move games over to The Bill as required. Do it now Coach D. Make The Cage the home of Women's Basketbal!!!!!
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