Game 28, 2022-23: Dayton (2/22)

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NilesGold
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Re: Game 28, 2022-23: Dayton (2/22)

Post by NilesGold » Sat Feb 25, 2023 4:50 pm

minutefanjsf wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 12:10 pm
Juice Stand wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 7:22 am I'm actually in agreement with Niles on this one. Wildens is a pretty darn good garbage man. That's not an insult, it means he hangs around the basket and gets offensive rebounds and putbacks. That's a skill, that's a role. Many players have made a career out of that role. You can feed him in the post, but I wish he would kick the ball back out to a team mate for a jump shot more often. His moves and footwork look slow to me, and he was exposed as being too slow against Dayton and a few others. I think about when Tre was here, he was obviously much more skilled than Wildens, but he was also a fantastic passer and was happy to kick it out to give a team mate an open shot. I need more of that from Wildens. I certainly need less of him taking 3's. I don't care how many he made unguarded in preseason hype videos, I need zero of them during live games.

As far as Kante goes, I think he does have a better offensive game than Wildens. He has a really nice touch around the basket and shoots 0.549 from 2pt as opposed to Wildens' 0.471 from 2pt. The downside with Kante is he's not as tall, and he favors that light touch as opposed to going up strong with it, which is weird because he's built so strong.
I didn’t think it was an insult. Having your starting big as the garbage man is weird. IMO. Garbage man to me is a scrappy dive on the floor guy who comes off the bench to inject energy. It also doesn’t work well if the offense is perimeter oriented as a result. Too many long rebounds. He can only be a good passer if he is threat to score, IMO. Like I said he doesn’t need to be the focus of the offense. He can’t be relegated to just cleaning up the glass. He is actually scoring and shooting worse against the A10 than he did vs the SEC, in about the same minutes.
I thought the definition of a garbage man in basketball was standard and everyone knew it, but maybe not. My understanding of a garbage man (it's usually used to describe a type of big man), and how I think you need to utilize someone like Wildens, is that you don't run plays for them, they score on putbacks or broken plays. You absolutely do not force difficult entry passes into them, or run your offense through them. Typically they're good rebounders or defenders which makes up for the fact that they're usually not that good offensively.

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Re: Game 28, 2022-23: Dayton (2/22)

Post by minutefanjsf » Sat Feb 25, 2023 10:34 pm

NilesGold wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 4:50 pm
minutefanjsf wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 12:10 pm
Juice Stand wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 7:22 am I'm actually in agreement with Niles on this one. Wildens is a pretty darn good garbage man. That's not an insult, it means he hangs around the basket and gets offensive rebounds and putbacks. That's a skill, that's a role. Many players have made a career out of that role. You can feed him in the post, but I wish he would kick the ball back out to a team mate for a jump shot more often. His moves and footwork look slow to me, and he was exposed as being too slow against Dayton and a few others. I think about when Tre was here, he was obviously much more skilled than Wildens, but he was also a fantastic passer and was happy to kick it out to give a team mate an open shot. I need more of that from Wildens. I certainly need less of him taking 3's. I don't care how many he made unguarded in preseason hype videos, I need zero of them during live games.

As far as Kante goes, I think he does have a better offensive game than Wildens. He has a really nice touch around the basket and shoots 0.549 from 2pt as opposed to Wildens' 0.471 from 2pt. The downside with Kante is he's not as tall, and he favors that light touch as opposed to going up strong with it, which is weird because he's built so strong.
I didn’t think it was an insult. Having your starting big as the garbage man is weird. IMO. Garbage man to me is a scrappy dive on the floor guy who comes off the bench to inject energy. It also doesn’t work well if the offense is perimeter oriented as a result. Too many long rebounds. He can only be a good passer if he is threat to score, IMO. Like I said he doesn’t need to be the focus of the offense. He can’t be relegated to just cleaning up the glass. He is actually scoring and shooting worse against the A10 than he did vs the SEC, in about the same minutes.
I thought the definition of a garbage man in basketball was standard and everyone knew it, but maybe not. My understanding of a garbage man (it's usually used to describe a type of big man), and how I think you need to utilize someone like Wildens, is that you don't run plays for them, they score on putbacks or broken plays. You absolutely do not force difficult entry passes into them, or run your offense through them. Typically they're good rebounders or defenders which makes up for the fact that they're usually not that good offensively.
Dennis Rodman is the archetype of a garbage man IMO. I’ve seen a Marcus Smart described as a garbage man due to his inability to creat for himself. (That’s not usually the definition I tend to use, though). Having a center be the garbage man to me is not common. They don’t have to have plays set up for them to score, but they most definitely are an integral part of the offense. They can and should have some plays that are run for them when the opportunity arises. They are just not expected to carry any scoring load. Expecting 8-12 points is not a huge role when a team scores 70-80. 3 or 4 FG and 4-6 points at the line. He was able to score in the SEC at a much higher FG %.

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Re: Game 28, 2022-23: Dayton (2/22)

Post by stevemaz » Sun Feb 26, 2023 6:04 am

minutefanjsf wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 11:55 pm
NilesGold wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 9:23 pm ^ He’s a garbage man, let him score on putbacks and the like, but stop posting him up and trying to establish him as a back to the basket post scorer, he doesn’t have the skills/ability to make it work.
Again. Disagree. Have you ever played or coached?. You seem to focus on every conversation as though the player is the focus. You have specific roles established and scenarios for every player and fail to grasp the actual game. Wildens has the skills to be part of the offense. To tell, any big that they will never get a shot unless they get an offensive rebound (put back), is insane. He is the starting center for a D1 basketball team. He has to be part of the offense.
The problem is that he is kind of a stumblebum on offense. I would limit his touches. That said, in the FM offense I would think Gapare should be the 5 because it would open up things in the middle as the opposing center would have to guard him at the top of the key.

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Re: Game 28, 2022-23: Dayton (2/22)

Post by Juice Stand » Sun Feb 26, 2023 6:49 am

stevemaz wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2023 6:04 am ...in the FM offense...
I'm not a hoops scholar by any means. Can someone explain to me what the Frank Martin offense is? What I see is trying to get the ball in to the post, a lot of standing around with very little off-ball movement, and some one-on-one by guys like RJ and Cross. I don't see hard screens and guys rolling to the basket, I don't see an inside-out passing game, I don't see off-ball movement to get shooters open. This isn't a dig on FM, just trying to figure out what the philosophy is.

When we played Dayton, I saw their offensive identity clear as day. Same thing with Richmond, Davidson, Saint Louis and others. It's not clear to my eyes what our strategy is.

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Re: Game 28, 2022-23: Dayton (2/22)

Post by minutefanjsf » Sun Feb 26, 2023 9:18 am

stevemaz wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2023 6:04 am
minutefanjsf wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 11:55 pm
NilesGold wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 9:23 pm ^ He’s a garbage man, let him score on putbacks and the like, but stop posting him up and trying to establish him as a back to the basket post scorer, he doesn’t have the skills/ability to make it work.
Again. Disagree. Have you ever played or coached?. You seem to focus on every conversation as though the player is the focus. You have specific roles established and scenarios for every player and fail to grasp the actual game. Wildens has the skills to be part of the offense. To tell, any big that they will never get a shot unless they get an offensive rebound (put back), is insane. He is the starting center for a D1 basketball team. He has to be part of the offense.
The problem is that he is kind of a stumblebum on offense. I would limit his touches. That said, in the FM offense I would think Gapare should be the 5 because it would open up things in the middle as the opposing center would have to guard him at the top of the key.
I think they are stuck this year at the position. Gapare isn’t quite seasoned or strong enough and Wildens isn’t scoring well. The cross screens, etc. can help diminish his touches while keeping him involved. He should get between 6-10 FG attempts. If he is not getting those touches or FG attempts, due to being marginalized by the offensive scheme, that would likely put pressure on other positions, IMO.

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Re: Game 28, 2022-23: Dayton (2/22)

Post by minutefanjsf » Sun Feb 26, 2023 9:36 am

Juice Stand wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2023 6:49 am
stevemaz wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2023 6:04 am ...in the FM offense...
I'm not a hoops scholar by any means. Can someone explain to me what the Frank Martin offense is? What I see is trying to get the ball in to the post, a lot of standing around with very little off-ball movement, and some one-on-one by guys like RJ and Cross. I don't see hard screens and guys rolling to the basket, I don't see an inside-out passing game, I don't see off-ball movement to get shooters open. This isn't a dig on FM, just trying to figure out what the philosophy is.

When we played Dayton, I saw their offensive identity clear as day. Same thing with Richmond, Davidson, Saint Louis and others. It's not clear to my eyes what our strategy is.
Based on the yelling and the pressers, the offense has not done what it is supposed to. FM has continuously yelled for guys to move on offense. His offense is about attacking the rim. Get offensive rebounds. Keon had a good example of why he does on offense in the presser the other day. Basically, any movement, ball or player is to get a clear look or lane to the rim. Attacking the rim can lead to a kick out three, etc. His displeasure shows when the kids settle by passing the ball around the perimeter or a fade away one on one shot is what the result is.

69MG
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Re: Game 28, 2022-23: Dayton (2/22)

Post by 69MG » Sun Feb 26, 2023 11:08 am

Keon is not experienced enough to direct the offense. He may get there, but it will take time. Noah runs the offense, tells guys where to be, and makes the right decisions. Yes, we miss his scoring, but more than that, we miss his leadership.

kdogg8173
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Re: Game 28, 2022-23: Dayton (2/22)

Post by kdogg8173 » Sun Feb 26, 2023 11:43 am

minutefanjsf wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2023 9:18 am
stevemaz wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2023 6:04 am
minutefanjsf wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 11:55 pm

Again. Disagree. Have you ever played or coached?. You seem to focus on every conversation as though the player is the focus. You have specific roles established and scenarios for every player and fail to grasp the actual game. Wildens has the skills to be part of the offense. To tell, any big that they will never get a shot unless they get an offensive rebound (put back), is insane. He is the starting center for a D1 basketball team. He has to be part of the offense.
The problem is that he is kind of a stumblebum on offense. I would limit his touches. That said, in the FM offense I would think Gapare should be the 5 because it would open up things in the middle as the opposing center would have to guard him at the top of the key.
I think they are stuck this year at the position. Gapare isn’t quite seasoned or strong enough and Wildens isn’t scoring well. The cross screens, etc. can help diminish his touches while keeping him involved. He should get between 6-10 FG attempts. If he is not getting those touches or FG attempts, due to being marginalized by the offensive scheme, that would likely put pressure on other positions, IMO.
So you think Gapare and Wildens both should get 6-10 shots a game? How? There’s not enough shots to go around to even coming close to that for bad offensive players. Those amount of shots would put them in the top two or 3 on the team. And Wildens has has never taken more than 2 fta per game. To expect 4-6 points you have to actually have an offensive game that draws fouls which he most certainly does not. And for reference, umass has had a grand total of 4 guys average over 5 FTA per game in the last 10 years. Getting 4 points per game from the ft line would put him top 50th in the country. No chance

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Re: Game 28, 2022-23: Dayton (2/22)

Post by Juice Stand » Sun Feb 26, 2023 1:07 pm

minutefanjsf wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2023 9:36 am
Juice Stand wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2023 6:49 am
stevemaz wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2023 6:04 am ...in the FM offense...
I'm not a hoops scholar by any means. Can someone explain to me what the Frank Martin offense is? What I see is trying to get the ball in to the post, a lot of standing around with very little off-ball movement, and some one-on-one by guys like RJ and Cross. I don't see hard screens and guys rolling to the basket, I don't see an inside-out passing game, I don't see off-ball movement to get shooters open. This isn't a dig on FM, just trying to figure out what the philosophy is.

When we played Dayton, I saw their offensive identity clear as day. Same thing with Richmond, Davidson, Saint Louis and others. It's not clear to my eyes what our strategy is.
Based on the yelling and the pressers, the offense has not done what it is supposed to. FM has continuously yelled for guys to move on offense. His offense is about attacking the rim. Get offensive rebounds. Keon had a good example of why he does on offense in the presser the other day. Basically, any movement, ball or player is to get a clear look or lane to the rim. Attacking the rim can lead to a kick out three, etc. His displeasure shows when the kids settle by passing the ball around the perimeter or a fade away one on one shot is what the result is.
They yelling I'm hearing during games is not particularly instructive. Stuff like "you're a bum" or "get your sorry ass out of the game". Couple that with him sitting with his arms crossed and pouting when things aren't going well, which is often, and it doesn't look very instructive to me.

Saying that his offense is to get a clear look or lane to the rim doesn't really tell me how he wants to get those looks. Everybody wants a clear look or lane to the rim, but you have to do something to make that happen, otherwise you're just playing one on one and hoping your player can beat the man defending him.

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Re: Game 28, 2022-23: Dayton (2/22)

Post by minutefanjsf » Sun Feb 26, 2023 2:52 pm

kdogg8173 wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2023 11:43 am
minutefanjsf wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2023 9:18 am
stevemaz wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2023 6:04 am

The problem is that he is kind of a stumblebum on offense. I would limit his touches. That said, in the FM offense I would think Gapare should be the 5 because it would open up things in the middle as the opposing center would have to guard him at the top of the key.
I think they are stuck this year at the position. Gapare isn’t quite seasoned or strong enough and Wildens isn’t scoring well. The cross screens, etc. can help diminish his touches while keeping him involved. He should get between 6-10 FG attempts. If he is not getting those touches or FG attempts, due to being marginalized by the offensive scheme, that would likely put pressure on other positions, IMO.
So you think Gapare and Wildens both should get 6-10 shots a game? How? There’s not enough shots to go around to even coming close to that for bad offensive players. Those amount of shots would put them in the top two or 3 on the team. And Wildens has has never taken more than 2 fta per game. To expect 4-6 points you have to actually have an offensive game that draws fouls which he most certainly does not. And for reference, umass has had a grand total of 4 guys average over 5 FTA per game in the last 10 years. Getting 4 points per game from the ft line would put him top 50th in the country. No chance
I think out of the five position in this offense there should be 6-10 FGA per game.depending on the game. Probably 1/3-1/2 are on put backs from offensive rebounds. I didn’t think I wrote or implied he would get his points from the free throw line. He averages about 6 shots a game. Some games high shot numbers others very few. They average about 60 shots a game which is kind of a slow pace, IMO. Expecting 10-17% of those shots from the five doesn’t seem unreasonable.

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Re: Game 28, 2022-23: Dayton (2/22)

Post by minutefanjsf » Sun Feb 26, 2023 3:08 pm

Juice Stand wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2023 1:07 pm
minutefanjsf wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2023 9:36 am
Juice Stand wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2023 6:49 am

I'm not a hoops scholar by any means. Can someone explain to me what the Frank Martin offense is? What I see is trying to get the ball in to the post, a lot of standing around with very little off-ball movement, and some one-on-one by guys like RJ and Cross. I don't see hard screens and guys rolling to the basket, I don't see an inside-out passing game, I don't see off-ball movement to get shooters open. This isn't a dig on FM, just trying to figure out what the philosophy is.

When we played Dayton, I saw their offensive identity clear as day. Same thing with Richmond, Davidson, Saint Louis and others. It's not clear to my eyes what our strategy is.
Based on the yelling and the pressers, the offense has not done what it is supposed to. FM has continuously yelled for guys to move on offense. His offense is about attacking the rim. Get offensive rebounds. Keon had a good example of why he does on offense in the presser the other day. Basically, any movement, ball or player is to get a clear look or lane to the rim. Attacking the rim can lead to a kick out three, etc. His displeasure shows when the kids settle by passing the ball around the perimeter or a fade away one on one shot is what the result is.
They yelling I'm hearing during games is not particularly instructive. Stuff like "you're a bum" or "get your sorry ass out of the game". Couple that with him sitting with his arms crossed and pouting when things aren't going well, which is often, and it doesn't look very instructive to me.

Saying that his offense is to get a clear look or lane to the rim doesn't really tell me how he wants to get those looks. Everybody wants a clear look or lane to the rim, but you have to do something to make that happen, otherwise you're just playing one on one and hoping your player can beat the man defending him.
He gets those looks from a few different starting points. Sometimes a weave, sometimes a ball screen with some simultaneous screens down low, very rarely is it perimeter passing, IMO. Based on what Keon said, his job is to read how the screening is working and then decide if the lane is open for a drive, swinging the ball is the option, or entry pass to the post. When there is a mismatch, we’ve also seen the lob down low to get over the head of a fronting defense.

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Re: Game 28, 2022-23: Dayton (2/22)

Post by kdogg8173 » Sun Feb 26, 2023 3:46 pm

minutefanjsf wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 10:34 pm

Expecting 8-12 points is not a huge role when a team scores 70-80. 3 or 4 FG and 4-6 points at the line. He was able to score in the SEC at a much higher FG %.
Minuteman, you did write it though. And to say to expect 6-10 shot from the 5 position vs 6-10 shots from Wilden is a different conversation and a point you were previously not making. Umass is also 64th in the country in FGA per game, and 37th in tempo according to Kenpom.

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Re: Game 28, 2022-23: Dayton (2/22)

Post by minutefanjsf » Sun Feb 26, 2023 11:05 pm

kdogg8173 wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2023 3:46 pm
minutefanjsf wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 10:34 pm

Expecting 8-12 points is not a huge role when a team scores 70-80. 3 or 4 FG and 4-6 points at the line. He was able to score in the SEC at a much higher FG %.
Minuteman, you did write it though. And to say to expect 6-10 shot from the 5 position vs 6-10 shots from Wilden is a different conversation and a point you were previously not making. Umass is also 64th in the country in FGA per game, and 37th in tempo according to Kenpom.
Guess I forgot. The 6-10 shots from the position is what I was thinking. I must’ve been conflating Kante getting to the line with Wildens, as well. He gets to the line more than Wildens.

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Re: Game 28, 2022-23: Dayton (2/22)

Post by eldonabe » Mon Feb 27, 2023 7:39 am

Juice Stand wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2023 6:49 am
stevemaz wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2023 6:04 am ...in the FM offense...
I'm not a hoops scholar by any means. Can someone explain to me what the Frank Martin offense is? What I see is trying to get the ball in to the post, a lot of standing around with very little off-ball movement, and some one-on-one by guys like RJ and Cross. I don't see hard screens and guys rolling to the basket, I don't see an inside-out passing game, I don't see off-ball movement to get shooters open. This isn't a dig on FM, just trying to figure out what the philosophy is.

When we played Dayton, I saw their offensive identity clear as day. Same thing with Richmond, Davidson, Saint Louis and others. It's not clear to my eyes what our strategy is.
Have you not been paying attention for the last 14 years - that is Umass basketball.

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Re: Game 28, 2022-23: Dayton (2/22)

Post by inthescoop » Mon Feb 27, 2023 12:12 pm

eldonabe wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 7:39 am
Juice Stand wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2023 6:49 am
stevemaz wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2023 6:04 am ...in the FM offense...
I'm not a hoops scholar by any means. Can someone explain to me what the Frank Martin offense is? What I see is trying to get the ball in to the post, a lot of standing around with very little off-ball movement, and some one-on-one by guys like RJ and Cross. I don't see hard screens and guys rolling to the basket, I don't see an inside-out passing game, I don't see off-ball movement to get shooters open. This isn't a dig on FM, just trying to figure out what the philosophy is.

When we played Dayton, I saw their offensive identity clear as day. Same thing with Richmond, Davidson, Saint Louis and others. It's not clear to my eyes what our strategy is.
Have you not been paying attention for the last 14 years - that is Umass basketball.
We were. We are. UMass.

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