NCAA Investigating UCONN for recruiting violations

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Jackson96
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Re: NCAA Investigating UCONN for recruiting violations

Post by Jackson96 » Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:09 am

Going to be interesting to see how the NCAA investigation affects the UConn coaching search (perhaps it won't affect it much, since there is speculation that UConn got the ball rolling on it so they could shitcan Ollie with cause.) Also sounds like there is unrest given their conference affiliation and also being a bit cash strapped (especially if Ollie wins the fight in the 'cause' situation).

Re: Hurley -- I think he would be the best possible hire they could get. He has his detractors for in-game coaching but he is a really good recruiter, gets kids to play hard, and wins. I don't think URI is the easiest gig in the world (it's not a bad gig but it's not the easiest), but Hurley managed to turn it into the best A-10 program over the last few years.

Re: Ollie -- I saw Niles' comment about him being a good recruiter, but I thought one of the criticisms against him were his recruiting efforts. Outside of Adams and that other guard (whose name eludes me) who has always been injured, it seems he relies a lot on transfers and the other non-transfer recruits he gets aren't any great shakes. Also seems like he's also lost the Rivals connection (I think they had a good connection to that program at one point) to PC. I'm guessing the drop from the Big East to AAC hasn't helped with recruiting either, but at any rate, I thought Ollie's lack of recruiting was one of the chief complaints against him.
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Re: NCAA Investigating UCONN for recruiting violations

Post by NilesGold » Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:46 am

^ Over the course of three years (2014, 2015, and 2016), Ollie was able to get 2 five-star players and 5 four-star players (and a number of three-star players). His 2016 class was ranked 8th nationally. I'd say Ollie is a good recruiter, but his inability to sustain success on the court has caught up to him and negatively affected his recruiting the last year or two.

Providence made a splash in 2012 with 2 five-star players, but since then it's been all three and four-star players. That 2012 class was an aberration, but Providence has picked up steam in recruiting lately with their 2017 and 2018 classes in the top 25 nationally.

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Re: NCAA Investigating UCONN for recruiting violations

Post by Jackson96 » Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:10 am

Fair enough on the UConn recruiting #'s, you say that's what they are, I'm not gonna try and debate that. Those #'s sound wonderful when they are listed like that. Outside of Adams and Hamilton (for the short time he was there) and maybe Vital though, nobody really panned out, especially up front. Did they not develop or did they pick the wrong kids? I have no idea. I just have been reading the Ollie stories from folks a lot more informed than you or I and they seem to point to a wane in recruiting under Ollie as one of the reasons for his troubles. Then you look at the lineups he puts on the floor and its hard for me to argue with their point.

Initially I thought when Ollie got the gig and UConn kept getting kids like Adams and Gilbert (I think that's the injured kid's name), I thought they were recruiting the way UConn had always had in terms of getting really good guards who were tough, but were also going to stick around for more than a year. When you look at their titles that's what they always had: really good veteran guards who led the team. Adams is good, but probably a level below those previous guys and Gilbert's been injured. The frontcourt, though, has been a complete disaster. That's where they've really missed.

Re: Providence, I wasn't commenting on their recruiting as a whole, only that I thought UConn once had an in with the Rivals program (I think that assistant they fired Miller or whatever his name is had a good relationship with Rivals) but that those really good Rivals kids were now ending up playing for the Friars (Ashton-Langford, Duke, Reeves). I might be overestimating UConn's relationship with Rivals, but I thought it was a pipeline for Storrs at one point.
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Re: NCAA Investigating UCONN for recruiting violations

Post by NilesGold » Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:48 am

^ I think it was somewhat of a Rivals pipeline, Napier, Adams, then Ashton-Langford... who switched up his recruitment to Providence after de-committing from UConn.

I think UConn's been bitten by the injury bug a bit, with Gilbert and Mamadou Diarra. They've also been hit pretty hard by guys transferring out, Steven Enoch, Vance Jackson, Juwan Durham.

When I say Ollie has recruited well, I mean he's gotten talented players who he's wanted... whether he's gotten great players or players that would fit his teams and make them good, that's up for debate.

I think Hurley will be better than Ollie, no doubt.

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Re: NCAA Investigating UCONN for recruiting violations

Post by NilesGold » Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:51 am

^ I couldn't tell you exactly where Ollie's problem lies. But I think it's an easy cop out blame it on an inability to recruit talented players, and an even lazier cop out to blame it on UConn's current conference affiliation hurting recruiting. Maybe he's not getting the right type or mix of players, maybe he's not developing them, motivating or orchestrating them correctly.
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Re: NCAA Investigating UCONN for recruiting violations

Post by uz2b-len » Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:52 am

I completely agree that Hurley will be better than Ollie. But I think his tactical weaknesses are gonna be even more evident stepping up a level.
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Re: NCAA Investigating UCONN for recruiting violations

Post by Jackson96 » Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:28 pm

I don't think the folks I'm reading about the situation are using recruiting as the reason nor as a cop out for Ollie's struggles, just one of the reasons. I tend to agree when I look at their roster, especially up front. Sure they've had some talented kids (who hadn't really produced much if we're being honest) leave via transfer, but the kids they've gotten in their place haven't produced.

It's a mess and I don't think folks (who are much closer to the situation than us) saying that recruiting/roster composition being a part of that mess is much of a leap.

Anywho, I think this debate has kind of run its course and I imagine anyone reading these posts must feel like the airplane passengers sitting next to Ted Striker when he was telling his life story in Airplane!.
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Re: NCAA Investigating UCONN for recruiting violations

Post by TheOFFSeason » Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:36 pm

NilesGold wrote: Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:46 am ^ Over the course of three years (2014, 2015, and 2016), Ollie was able to get 2 five-star players and 5 four-star players (and a number of three-star players). His 2016 class was ranked 8th nationally. I'd say Ollie is a good recruiter, but his inability to sustain success on the court has caught up to him and negatively affected his recruiting the last year or two.

Providence made a splash in 2012 with 2 five-star players, but since then it's been all three and four-star players. That 2012 class was an aberration, but Providence has picked up steam in recruiting lately with their 2017 and 2018 classes in the top 25 nationally.
5 stars and 4 stars are opinions of non coaches and after the first 15-20 each year they really don’t mean anything. The reason I am saying this once again is that it is my opinion that Cooley has recruited as well as anyone for who will fit his style, toughness, philosophy, personality and he hasn’t lost out on many guys he has targeted in the last 3-4 years...the guys he goes after are 5 stars in his eyes...he doesn’t care one bit what ESPN rankings say.

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Re: NCAA Investigating UCONN for recruiting violations

Post by NilesGold » Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:08 pm

^ To say the rankings mean nothing after the first 15-20 players is nonsense. They're certainly not perfect, even inside of the top 10, and they certainly get less and less reliable as you get further away from the top. But there's been some statistical analysis (one by Rivals comes to mind) where it showed years later that their top ~100 rankings end up being relatively accurate.

When I think about ability to recruit, I actually think of it more as the ability to get players that the coach wants, not necessarily the ability to scout & identify talent and fit the players to a system or to a mold or what you really need... That's probably a weird distinction that only I hold.

I think Cooley is really good at finding players that produce above what you'd expect from their rankings, whether that's because he develops them, he's good at identifying talent, or he's able to put them in great position to succeed, I don't know... but he also has his share of guys who don't pan out... Ricky Council, Ryan Fazekas, Quadree Smith, Tyree Chambers, Drew Edwards, and Dajour Dickens have all failed to make an impact or transferred out thus far just in the last few years.

We've gone off on a tangent here... Ollie wasn't getting it done at UConn... he was able to land highly rated players, but somewhere along the way his teams became total messes, whether he recruited players that weren't as good as their rankings, or it was something else, I guess it doesn't much matter now.

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Re: NCAA Investigating UCONN for recruiting violations

Post by Tman1319 » Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:37 pm

NilesGold wrote: Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:08 pm ^ To say the rankings mean nothing after the first 15-20 players is nonsense. They're certainly not perfect, even inside of the top 10, and they certainly get less and less reliable as you get further away from the top. But there's been some statistical analysis (one by Rivals comes to mind) where it showed years later that their top ~100 rankings end up being relatively accurate.

When I think about ability to recruit, I actually think of it more as the ability to get players that the coach wants, not necessarily the ability to scout & identify talent and fit the players to a system or to a mold or what you really need... That's probably a weird distinction that only I hold.

I think Cooley is really good at finding players that produce above what you'd expect from their rankings, whether that's because he develops them, he's good at identifying talent, or he's able to put them in great position to succeed, I don't know... but he also has his share of guys who don't pan out... Ricky Council, Ryan Fazekas, Quadree Smith, Tyree Chambers, Drew Edwards, and Dajour Dickens have all failed to make an impact or transferred out thus far just in the last few years.

We've gone off on a tangent here... Ollie wasn't getting it done at UConn... he was able to land highly rated players, but somewhere along the way his teams became total messes, whether he recruited players that weren't as good as their rankings, or it was something else, I guess it doesn't much matter now.
Another coach who was good at finding players that produced above their rankings, was Cooley's mentor, Al Skinner.
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Re: NCAA Investigating UCONN for recruiting violations

Post by TheOFFSeason » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:45 am

NilesGold wrote: Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:08 pm ^ To say the rankings mean nothing after the first 15-20 players is nonsense. They're certainly not perfect, even inside of the top 10, and they certainly get less and less reliable as you get further away from the top. But there's been some statistical analysis (one by Rivals comes to mind) where it showed years later that their top ~100 rankings end up being relatively accurate.

When I think about ability to recruit, I actually think of it more as the ability to get players that the coach wants, not necessarily the ability to scout & identify talent and fit the players to a system or to a mold or what you really need... That's probably a weird distinction that only I hold.

I think Cooley is really good at finding players that produce above what you'd expect from their rankings, whether that's because he develops them, he's good at identifying talent, or he's able to put them in great position to succeed, I don't know... but he also has his share of guys who don't pan out... Ricky Council, Ryan Fazekas, Quadree Smith, Tyree Chambers, Drew Edwards, and Dajour Dickens have all failed to make an impact or transferred out thus far just in the last few years.

We've gone off on a tangent here... Ollie wasn't getting it done at UConn... he was able to land highly rated players, but somewhere along the way his teams became total messes, whether he recruited players that weren't as good as their rankings, or it was something else, I guess it doesn't much matter now.
Here’s what I’ll tell you about the rankings...I once sat in on a session when the ESPN guys were doing their updated rankings in August, post summer evaluation time...they spent 3/4 of their 2 hr meeting on moving around the top 25 guys...the rest of the time they took turns throwing a name out and where they put them had a lot to do with nothing about their ability but more about favors and stuff like that. So when fans get excited that they got the ‘57th’ ranked player in the country it is really nonsense.
Also, take a look at the NBA...it’s mostly top 20 guys and then non ranked guys like Damian Lilliard etc

When you say you look at the ability to recruit being the ability to get who a coach wants but not necessarily the ability to evaluate who is going to fit their system etc....what do you think determines who they want?

Keep this in mind too...every team has 13 scholarships which makes it impossible for every one of the recruited players to be a star, major contributor or a stat sheet stuffer. Guys that you mentioned above for Cooley were not all brought in with that in mind (some that transferred might have wanted to have a bigger role on a lesser team) so if Drew Edwards ends his career with a 3ppg and 7 mins a game averages it doesn’t mean that he hasn’t had an impact on his team in some way or reached the goals their staff had for him...he needs to be ready when the stars they recruited get hurt or are having a bad game(as Edwards did in the second half Saturday night when he truly helped them get to OT in the Championship game after not seeing the floor in the 1st half).
Kids have a choice when they are at his ability level...go to a MAAC, NEC, Colonial etc school and have a bigger role or go to a bigger school with the understanding that your role will be smaller, you will have the opportunity to improve and get a bigger role but also know they will keep recruiting top kids each year. Some kids are fine with that and do a good job with that role like Edwards, some kids like Fazekas try it and then realize they would rather have a bigger role on a smaller team and some kids just aren’t mature enough and they end up nowhere.

Cooley very rarely will target a kid without a high level of toughness but he will take a shot on a kid from time to time because he does have 13 scholarships.

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Re: NCAA Investigating UCONN for recruiting violations

Post by NilesGold » Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:49 am

^ You're right about ESPN, their rankings are terrible and I ignore them. I used to pay more attention to Rivals, but now I mostly look at 247 composite rankings and yes, after the top 100-150 they're mostly worthless.

I don't know why I look at ability to recruit the way I do, I admit it's pretty strange. Probably makes more sense to just lump the ability to identify talent, who will fit your system, project who will develop, and all that other stuff with the ability to actually get those players. I think once you have players, actually developing them in another thing entirely.

I think Hurley is a good recruiter (all of those things lumped together), but I'm not sold on him being particularly good at player development/use. I'm not entirely sure where Ollie has his breakdown... but I've heard quite a few UConn people complain about his coaching in the same way we complained about Kellogg.

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Re: NCAA Investigating UCONN for recruiting violations

Post by minutefanjsf » Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:30 am

NilesGold wrote: Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:49 am ^ You're right about ESPN, their rankings are terrible and I ignore them. I used to pay more attention to Rivals, but now I mostly look at 247 composite rankings and yes, after the top 100-150 they're mostly worthless.

I don't know why I look at ability to recruit the way I do, I admit it's pretty strange. Probably makes more sense to just lump the ability to identify talent, who will fit your system, project who will develop, and all that other stuff with the ability to actually get those players. I think once you have players, actually developing them in another thing entirely.

I think Hurley is a good recruiter (all of those things lumped together), but I'm not sold on him being particularly good at player development/use. I'm not entirely sure where Ollie has his breakdown... but I've heard quite a few UConn people complain about his coaching in the same way we complained about Kellogg.
I honestly think it goes back to coaches who were solid/good to great players don’t translate into good coaches. They can’t recreate what got them to be successful and just seem to say, well I told the kids what to to do and they couldn’t do it. They are usually good at getting the players fired up and are good at selling themselves and the team, but in game tactics and attention to detail seems to go out the window. Tee can’t identify the intangibles well either, IMO, that lead to great team play. It is rare for a great player to coach the same level he was great at at a high level. Very good/great HS players who don’t shine in college can be great college coaches for example.

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Re: NCAA Investigating UCONN for recruiting violations

Post by TheOFFSeason » Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:33 am

NilesGold wrote: Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:49 am ^ You're right about ESPN, their rankings are terrible and I ignore them. I used to pay more attention to Rivals, but now I mostly look at 247 composite rankings and yes, after the top 100-150 they're mostly worthless.

I don't know why I look at ability to recruit the way I do, I admit it's pretty strange. Probably makes more sense to just lump the ability to identify talent, who will fit your system, project who will develop, and all that other stuff with the ability to actually get those players. I think once you have players, actually developing them in another thing entirely.

I think Hurley is a good recruiter (all of those things lumped together), but I'm not sold on him being particularly good at player development/use. I'm not entirely sure where Ollie has his breakdown... but I've heard quite a few UConn people complain about his coaching in the same way we complained about Kellogg.
At the time I was in that meeting ESPN had all ex D1 coaches doing their rankings except Dave Telep but he was a knowledgeable guy to the point that the Spurs hired him the next year to evaluate for them. The ESPN guys were the most knowledgeable but it isn’t after top 100-150, it’s way before that. Here’s an example of what goes on with ALL of the rankings guys:
They all have friends that are coaches, some of those coaches seats are getting warm and they need some good press...they get a commitment from someone like Jarreau in the summer...when the post summer rankings come out they make him 57th instead of 95th because that coaches fan base is going to get excited and the heat will be off a little. Now I just used Jarreau as an example but it’s easy to see how that can happen using him as he certainly did not play up to his ranking last year...there were certainly people who thought DK deserved another year because of the recruits he brought in and that was really based on their ranking coming into UMass and not the production they showed last year on the court.
The other thing that happens is a kid commits to Duke, UNC etc in their junior year...that’s good for 10-50 places better in the rankings assuming they aren’t a top 20 player.

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Re: NCAA Investigating UCONN for recruiting violations

Post by NilesGold » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:36 pm

minutefanjsf wrote: Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:30 am I honestly think it goes back to coaches who were solid/good to great players don’t translate into good coaches. They can’t recreate what got them to be successful and just seem to say, well I told the kids what to to do and they couldn’t do it. They are usually good at getting the players fired up and are good at selling themselves and the team, but in game tactics and attention to detail seems to go out the window. Tee can’t identify the intangibles well either, IMO, that lead to great team play. It is rare for a great player to coach the same level he was great at at a high level. Very good/great HS players who don’t shine in college can be great college coaches for example.
Simple explanation for why great basketball players don't often make great coaches. It's really rare to find someone who's athletically good enough to be at the apex of a sport played by millions of people, and then for that same person to also have the skills and attributes that make for a great coach.

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