2020 Presidential Election

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MJatUM
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election

Post by MJatUM » Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:13 am

TheInsider wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:02 am
Here's my thing on healthcare. we are in an age of electronic billing, electronic records, and direct online portals to your doctors. Now take a look at a company like Aetna... In 2017 they had almost 50k employees. So you go to the doctor.. the doc electronically sends a bill to Aetna.. Aetna electronically pays said bill (if they don't fight you about it first). Aetna also electronically manages your profile and care. Outside of a robust IT department, what the fuck do they need 50k employees for??? You want to cut costs??? there you go
How many of those 50K people do you want to fire. Thanks I'll hang up and listen.

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Re: 2020 Presidential Election

Post by InnervisionsUMASS » Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:17 am

DEM wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:38 am

Over and over again, in 2016 people were saying Trump had no shot of winning, and I and many others were repeatedly trying to tell people that they were delusional to think that.


Yep, I was one of those people. I get it now, but even then I'm still baffled by it. It's still crazy to me how it came to that happening.
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MJatUM
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election

Post by MJatUM » Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:17 am

DEM wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:38 am
Over and over again, in 2016 people were saying Trump had no shot of winning, and I and many others were repeatedly trying to tell people that they were delusional to think that. Now, we're seeing the same thing with Bernie. Although I do agree that it will be tough for ANY democrat to beat Trump, Bernie has the best shot, and the poll numbers bare that out...depending on the poll, he is usually either the best or second best vs Trump compared with the entire democratic field. The policy positions he puts as the face of his campaign (in particular economic and with respect to healthcare) have broad appeal, not just among democrats but also independents.

I agree though that Warren would be a poor general election candidate - she should not be lumped in with Bernie on this discussion, they are vastly different candidates in many respects. Besides, with the direction she has taken her campaign, she is on the verge of making herself irrelevant to this conversation anyway.
As one of these independents, I lean conservative but voted 3rd party in 2016... One thing I would really like to see from Bernie (maybe he's saving it for the General) is a more concentrated focus. I am on board with a lot of his things but he just has SOOOO much that he wants to change. Do I think he will be able to get much, if any of it, through? No, probably not. I would really like to see him pick a moderate VP that can keep him (or at least present the idea that they could keep him) somewhat in check.

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Re: 2020 Presidential Election

Post by TheInsider » Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:04 pm

MJatUM wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:13 am
TheInsider wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:02 am
Here's my thing on healthcare. we are in an age of electronic billing, electronic records, and direct online portals to your doctors. Now take a look at a company like Aetna... In 2017 they had almost 50k employees. So you go to the doctor.. the doc electronically sends a bill to Aetna.. Aetna electronically pays said bill (if they don't fight you about it first). Aetna also electronically manages your profile and care. Outside of a robust IT department, what the fuck do they need 50k employees for??? You want to cut costs??? there you go
How many of those 50K people do you want to fire. Thanks I'll hang up and listen.
All the ones that don't directly take the money from my pocket and give it to my provider. What do you think costs would be if they didn't have to pay say 25k employees?? This is why government run healthcare wont work... do you actually think a government agency won't have bloat or bureaucracies? And I work for the Gov.

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DEM
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election

Post by DEM » Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:01 pm

There will be bureaucracy with government of course, but take a look at our current system - it's exponentially worse compared to the single payer systems in other countries. That's because you have a complex system with many different insurance companies, each with their own bureaucracies and insurance company execs making millions a year, all while there are people are going into debt because they committed the crime of getting sick. The current system is unsustainable. Fortunately, we aren't wandering off into unfamiliar territory, because many developed countries, including our neighbors to the north, have a long history of doing what Bernie and others are aspiring to do.

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Re: 2020 Presidential Election

Post by TheInsider » Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:50 pm

Many of these countries with universal healthcare do not have big military budgets... You know why they don't?? Because we do. I agree something has to change to curb costs but single payer isn't it.. You don't think boutique cash only hospitals wont open?? Bernie is a fraud. According to CNN and other sources all of Bernies proposals would run 60 - 90 trillion over the next 10 years.. Its a guess because even Bernie has no clue. The total net worth of us all in the U.S. is about 100 trillion. So Bernie would have to confiscate 60 to 90% of our total assets to pay for the next 10 years. Oh and that's just new programs.. Oh but the middle class will barely be hit with taxes, he's just gonna tax the billionares… do you really think those people and companies will actually stay in the U.S.

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DEM
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election

Post by DEM » Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:59 pm

Insider, I'm not really sure what military budgets have to do with this discussion of healthcare costs, except that it probably does produce many more people with PTSD and other battlefield related ailments that drive up the financial expenditures, whatever the healthcare system is (that said, since you are concerned about government spending, I'll agree that yes we should cut military spending since ours is extremely wasteful). Other countries manage to put together a single payer system not because of anything to do with military budgets but because it is a relatively straightforward issue for them and they do not have to fight with powerful special interest groups to make it so.

With regard to medicare for all, I've seen estimates that it would cost somewhat less than our current healthcare system, others that it would cost marginally more. But in my opinion, even if it's the latter, as long as we are finding money to pay for tax cuts for the rich and endless wars, we should also be finding the money so people don't have to go bankrupt because they got cancer.

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Re: 2020 Presidential Election

Post by SignMan » Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:56 pm

MJatUM wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:13 am
TheInsider wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:02 am
Here's my thing on healthcare. we are in an age of electronic billing, electronic records, and direct online portals to your doctors. Now take a look at a company like Aetna... In 2017 they had almost 50k employees. So you go to the doctor.. the doc electronically sends a bill to Aetna.. Aetna electronically pays said bill (if they don't fight you about it first). Aetna also electronically manages your profile and care. Outside of a robust IT department, what the fuck do they need 50k employees for??? You want to cut costs??? there you go
How many of those 50K people do you want to fire. Thanks I'll hang up and listen.
not sure how many of the 50K work specifically related the subject matter here...
just saying, big company spread wide; lots of employees.

My bottom line has always been that the problem is specifically the cost of coverage (co-pays/deductibles/max benies, et al)
The delivery system in the U.S. is the best.
Those who would undermine the delivery by defeating it with government control are very sick puppies...

Here's something else health care related to learn about...

Epic
https://www.epic.com/
incredible private company, located in the bedroom community of Verona WI, near Madison...
Last time I checked, roughly 11,000 employees, coincidentally the size of their largest auditorium, located in the customer center, a five story building which goes down below ground, with the third floor called Middle Earth.

I you are ever in the area, pay it a visit. Truly an amazing campus, with much of the design work led by a former Disney theme park design dude.

They primarily serve the U.S., but have gone overseas to at least the Scandinavian countries (3 of 4 to date) with their national health plans...do keep in mind that small countries like them can be managed much easier than our relative mega expanse.
EDOC TERCES REPUS!

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InnervisionsUMASS
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election

Post by InnervisionsUMASS » Wed Feb 26, 2020 8:56 am

Not picking on SignMan saying this, but maybe above is part of the reason things are so damn expensive...
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election

Post by e_parade » Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:25 am

InnervisionsUMASS wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 8:56 am
Not picking on SignMan saying this, but maybe above is part of the reason things are so damn expensive...
You mean that there are many very large, competing corporations that have to have full admin staffs to understand the markets of every bit of every state (since it can be extremely different from place to place) that also have a goal of making a profit overall?

Also I don't get the whole "You lose your ability of choice" thing with the idea of single payer. You don't get a choice now (for the most part). If you have private insurance your "choice" is what your company tells you it is, and that restricts your choice of hospital and doctor based on who happens to be in that specific network. It's an illusion of choice.


FYI - as of 2017 the US was spending $3.5 Trillion on healthcare. $1.5 trillion of that came from government programs (medicare, medicaid, etc.) and the rest came out of consumer pockets. The single payer plan has been estimated to cost $30 trillion over 10 years, or $3 trillion per year. Less than we pay now, just the cost will be more obvious because it'll come from a single source rather than through individuals.

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Re: 2020 Presidential Election

Post by InnervisionsUMASS » Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:30 am

e_parade wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:25 am
InnervisionsUMASS wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 8:56 am
Not picking on SignMan saying this, but maybe above is part of the reason things are so damn expensive...
You mean that there are many very large, competing corporations that have to have full admin staffs to understand the markets of every bit of every state (since it can be extremely different from place to place) that also have a goal of making a profit overall?

No, building elaborate "campuses." I hardly doubt a healthcare company needed to contract a theme park designer to build an elaborate campus for their employees to work.

This may be one little thing, but little things add up.
Stop waiting for UMass to do something big and help UMass do something big. - Shades

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DEM
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election

Post by DEM » Wed Feb 26, 2020 10:20 am

e_parade wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:25 am

Also I don't get the whole "You lose your ability of choice" thing with the idea of single payer. You don't get a choice now (for the most part). If you have private insurance your "choice" is what your company tells you it is, and that restricts your choice of hospital and doctor based on who happens to be in that specific network. It's an illusion of choice.
Exactly. "Choice" is the talking point of the insurance industry and the of the candidates bought by them.

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Re: 2020 Presidential Election

Post by MJatUM » Wed Feb 26, 2020 10:41 am

I have choice. Either my companies plan (read: garbage) or my wife's companies plan (read: better).

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Re: 2020 Presidential Election

Post by e_parade » Wed Feb 26, 2020 11:03 am

MJatUM wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 10:41 am
I have choice. Either my companies plan (read: garbage) or my wife's companies plan (read: better).
Not trying to offend people here, but in my head here I just heard Trump (but insert any person you'd like if they've been married multiple times) say: "if you want better healthcare then get a better wife!"

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Re: 2020 Presidential Election

Post by InnervisionsUMASS » Wed Feb 26, 2020 11:14 am

:lol: :lol: :lol: that's pretty good
Stop waiting for UMass to do something big and help UMass do something big. - Shades

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