Whip Gone?

Get ready for some MACtion
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InnervisionsUMASS
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Re: Whip Gone?

Post by InnervisionsUMASS » Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:20 pm

^^

I don't disagree, just thought it was a bit disingenuous to compare our football program in 2018 to our basketball program in 1987 considering all the major changes to the college athletics landscape. Never mind the lightning in a bottle we got with Cal and the complete inability to get anywhere close to that success in the 20+ years since with much better facilities.
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Re: Whip Gone?

Post by DrG » Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:21 pm

When a recruit is on campus and he asks where he goes in the winter, they can only point to the outdoor surface at McGuirk. The bubble will help, but it's not a permanent solution. It is just plain wrong and shortsighted to say facilities are not an important part of the equation. As for McGuirk, it is what it is and it's not going to change very much for the foreseeable future. We can probably muddle through and even enjoy a little success, but no matter who we hire, it's going to be a tough sell for any HC. I'm not saying it wasn't time for a change - this season's regression was disturbing to say the least - but it seems we keep trying to reinvent the wheel and I don't have any answers (besides winning more games).

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Re: Whip Gone?

Post by dennisdent » Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:34 pm

DrG wrote: Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:21 pm When a recruit is on campus and he asks where he goes in the winter, they can only point to the outdoor surface at McGuirk. The bubble will help, but it's not a permanent solution. It is just plain wrong and shortsighted to say facilities are not an important part of the equation. As for McGuirk, it is what it is and it's not going to change very much for the foreseeable future. We can probably muddle through and even enjoy a little success, but no matter who we hire, it's going to be a tough sell for any HC. I'm not saying it wasn't time for a change - this season's regression was disturbing to say the least - but it seems we keep trying to reinvent the wheel and I don't have any answers (besides winning more games).

I hope UMass will recruit kids who want to play and practice in the cold! In the winter they should be in the fancy weightroom, inside the 35mil performance center, and later studying in the brand new education facility, at a top national university with great food, all expenses paid.

The lack of fans at the games is the glaring weakness to me, but winning will change that.

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Re: Whip Gone?

Post by Berkman » Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:59 pm

When my son was at UMass 00- 04 he worked in the Athletic ticket office and he said that in the winter when it snowed that after all of the roads and parking lots were plowed the next thing was the Boyden field so players could work out there cold or no cold. So the bubble will be a great practice option. I am sure that there are a lot of campuses that have bubbles.

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Re: Whip Gone?

Post by Jack » Wed Nov 21, 2018 2:35 pm

dennisdent wrote: Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:34 pm
DrG wrote: Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:21 pm
I hope UMass will recruit kids who want to play and practice in the cold! In the winter they should be in the fancy weightroom, inside the 35mil performance center, and later studying in the brand new education facility, at a top national university with great food, all expenses paid.

The lack of fans at the games is the glaring weakness to me, but winning will change that.
Come on Dennis, the key to winning CFB is recruiting. One critical component to recruiting is facilities. You might hope that recruits want to practice in cold weather - but the reality is that they don't want to practice in cold weather and they want to be able to work out in the winter so Having an IPF is HUGE. The additional reality is that the schools we are competing against for recruits have IPFs.

Additionally, A critical component of attendance is improving the Stadium - the stands, the bathrooms and the overall gamely experience - its not simply about winning.

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Re: Whip Gone?

Post by McKinney » Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:18 pm

Jack wrote: Wed Nov 21, 2018 2:35 pm Additionally, A critical component of attendance is improving the Stadium - the stands, the bathrooms and the overall gamely experience - its not simply about winning.
Isn't Jacobson's donation supposed to also fund those experience upgrades?
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Re: Whip Gone?

Post by Steve81 » Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:14 pm

McKinney wrote: Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:18 pm
Jack wrote: Wed Nov 21, 2018 2:35 pm Additionally, A critical component of attendance is improving the Stadium - the stands, the bathrooms and the overall gamely experience - its not simply about winning.
Isn't Jacobson's donation supposed to also fund those experience upgrades?
My interpretations of the press release that it was about a 10 Mil proposal and Marty Jacobson stepped forward with 5.58M specifically for the new Video Board and IPF. Assumed that with a private donation of over 50%, the state, university, bonding would be the probable source for the ADA access and hand rails, new concessions and bathrooms.
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Re: Whip Gone?

Post by baseline47 » Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:34 am

I'm sorry Whip couldn't win here. I was very happy when he got hired; I thought he would get UMass to a competitive level. However, he could not do it. I wonder if anyone can. The strength training facility is new, but the stadium is old, very small, and a bit run down. The fan base is small. This ain't Georgia or Alabama, etc. Football is not king in MA. However, the marching band is top notch.
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Re: Whip Gone?

Post by minutefanjsf » Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:26 pm

baseline47 wrote: Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:34 am I'm sorry Whip couldn't win here. I was very happy when he got hired; I thought he would get UMass to a competitive level. However, he could not do it. I wonder if anyone can. The strength training facility is new, but the stadium is old, very small, and a bit run down. The fan base is small. This ain't Georgia or Alabama, etc. Football is not king in MA. However, the marching band is top notch.
Disagree about competitiveness. That's actually what whip brought. Winning is what he lacked. Aside from a few blowouts, UMass football under Whip compete admirably. He didn't do enough to win games they should have. That's why he is gone. My wife is a band alum and loves the band, but would say they have taken a step back.

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Re: Whip Gone?

Post by Bay Area UMie » Fri Nov 23, 2018 6:05 am

Jack wrote: Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:37 am
DEM wrote: Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:20 am ^
Except that your analysis seems to ignore how poor a financial model FCS football is. FCS was no more sustainable for UMass, and the upside is/was significantly lower than FBS. My condolences about the Whipple firing by the way. Happy Thanksgiving to you as well.
Yes of course this "analysis" ignores many things but bay area umie needs some type of lame excuse to hijack this thread, draft a 6 paragraph chicken little / sky is falling off topic tome trashing UMass Football and ball washing smith college professor andrew zimbalist who also opposes UMass Football....a totally clueless and out of touch off topic screed......... LOL Happy Thanksgiving Turkey. !!
Typical post from “Jack”- long on invective, short on substance, data and rationale.

Why am I not surprised that you failed to refute any of the data or evidence I presented nor did you present a compelling thesis on how and why after 7 years of concrete, discernible results that fall far short of original naive projections UMass FBS football is a wise investment that justifies substantial institutional support including burdening cash-starved students with mandatory payment fees that annually exceed $2.4m.

Let me quickly address your laughable, incoherent rant with some hard facts and a little reciprocal vitriol:

”Off-Topic The Sky is Falling Post”-Are you serious? After 7 years of investing $50m-$60m, dismissing 2 head coaches and minimal fan/student/alumni support you don’t believe the administration should perform an objective “deep-dive” analysis (I hesitate to call it a “post-mortem” analysis) to better understand the past 7 years and why projected revenues fall short of original projections and just as disturbingly why costs have outstripped projections. You don’t agree that this exercise will help decision makers better plan how we move forward? Nothing like bringing naiveté, rose-colored glasses as well as the very same biases you accuse a very accomplished expert in the field of college athletics of having to the table. (More on this later)…

”Trash UMass Football” –As stated, I have nothing but respect, admiration and great gratitude for all past and present UMass athletes. I am, however, calling out the prior administration/leadership group in retrospect for some very poor analysis and naïve planning projections that got us in this precarious situation. I am hopeful that the current administration will critically look at the last 7 years to develop an effective, well-thought out go-forward plan that best serves the needs of the entire University, not just a very vocal minority-all options should be explored…

”Clueless”-Speaking of clueless who was the vocal poster that confidently projected an 8-9 win season for the team? Perhaps we can turn your predictive inclinations into a positive. Maybe you can utilize the propriety predictive model you developed for the win total prediction (or perhaps you rely on a crystal ball) to generate your favorite 5-6 common stock market picks over the next six months so we all can confidently sell your selections short and make a few bucks-how about letting us all capitalize on your incompetent predictive skills Jack?…

“Five-Paragraph Tomb/Post”-Good point here. I should have realized you possess a miniscule attention span and an inability to process factual points and supporting data as well as an inability to deal with somewhat complex issues. Next time I will post a Cliff Notes version specifically for you-my apologies for the obvious oversight…

”Zimbalist is Anti-UMass Football”-Please expand on this one. I can’t wait to read your rationale to support your absurd claim-oh wait I forgot you never provide any supporting rationale for anything you post. Anybody not familiar with Andrew Zimbalist should google his name and read this guy’s stellar credentials-obviously not as strong as Jack’s bonafides but how many scholars can match the depth and breadth of Jack’s knowledge on any subject.
And just to annoy Jack and prove I am a Zimbalist ‘ball-washer” as Jack asserts (see “ball-washer” section below) here is another quotation from the man about the UMass upgrade…

“I wish them luck, but I just don’t see how it works competitively, financially, or educationally,’’ said Andrew Zimbalist, a Smith College professor who is one of the nation’s leading sports economists and has consulted for the NCAA. “I hope I’m wrong, but it seems like kind of a farce.

”Bay Area UMie is a Turkey”-Nice holiday related double entendre. You got a nice chuckle out of me….

“Bay Area UMie Is A Ball-Washer”- Gee, this locker-room zinger had me reminiscing of my old days walking the hallowed halls of Boston Latin. “Ball-Washer” was a favorite expression the scholars from Dorchester liked to chuck around-Hey Jack did you grow up in “The Dot”?

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Re: Whip Gone?

Post by Swampy » Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:01 am

^ On tenterhooks waiting for Jack's reply. :)

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Re: Whip Gone?

Post by eldonabe » Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:01 pm

Well........

BAU - Dropping the Hammer on Jack!

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Re: Whip Gone?

Post by econalum » Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:16 pm

Bay Area UMie wrote: Fri Nov 23, 2018 6:05 am
Typical post from “Jack”- long on invective, short on substance, data and rationale.

Why am I not surprised that you failed to refute any of the data or evidence I presented nor did you present a compelling thesis on how and why after 7 years of concrete, discernible results that fall far short of original naive projections UMass FBS football is a wise investment that justifies substantial institutional support including burdening cash-starved students with mandatory payment fees that annually exceed $2.4m.

Let me quickly address your laughable, incoherent rant with some hard facts and a little reciprocal vitriol:

”Off-Topic The Sky is Falling Post”-Are you serious? After 7 years of investing $50m-$60m, dismissing 2 head coaches and minimal fan/student/alumni support you don’t believe the administration should perform an objective “deep-dive” analysis (I hesitate to call it a “post-mortem” analysis) to better understand the past 7 years and why projected revenues fall short of original projections and just as disturbingly why costs have outstripped projections. You don’t agree that this exercise will help decision makers better plan how we move forward? Nothing like bringing naiveté, rose-colored glasses as well as the very same biases you accuse a very accomplished expert in the field of college athletics of having to the table. (More on this later)…

”Trash UMass Football” –As stated, I have nothing but respect, admiration and great gratitude for all past and present UMass athletes. I am, however, calling out the prior administration/leadership group in retrospect for some very poor analysis and naïve planning projections that got us in this precarious situation. I am hopeful that the current administration will critically look at the last 7 years to develop an effective, well-thought out go-forward plan that best serves the needs of the entire University, not just a very vocal minority-all options should be explored…

”Clueless”-Speaking of clueless who was the vocal poster that confidently projected an 8-9 win season for the team? Perhaps we can turn your predictive inclinations into a positive. Maybe you can utilize the propriety predictive model you developed for the win total prediction (or perhaps you rely on a crystal ball) to generate your favorite 5-6 common stock market picks over the next six months so we all can confidently sell your selections short and make a few bucks-how about letting us all capitalize on your incompetent predictive skills Jack?…

“Five-Paragraph Tomb/Post”-Good point here. I should have realized you possess a miniscule attention span and an inability to process factual points and supporting data as well as an inability to deal with somewhat complex issues. Next time I will post a Cliff Notes version specifically for you-my apologies for the obvious oversight…

”Zimbalist is Anti-UMass Football”-Please expand on this one. I can’t wait to read your rationale to support your absurd claim-oh wait I forgot you never provide any supporting rationale for anything you post. Anybody not familiar with Andrew Zimbalist should google his name and read this guy’s stellar credentials-obviously not as strong as Jack’s bonafides but how many scholars can match the depth and breadth of Jack’s knowledge on any subject.
And just to annoy Jack and prove I am a Zimbalist ‘ball-washer” as Jack asserts (see “ball-washer” section below) here is another quotation from the man about the UMass upgrade…

“I wish them luck, but I just don’t see how it works competitively, financially, or educationally,’’ said Andrew Zimbalist, a Smith College professor who is one of the nation’s leading sports economists and has consulted for the NCAA. “I hope I’m wrong, but it seems like kind of a farce.

”Bay Area UMie is a Turkey”-Nice holiday related double entendre. You got a nice chuckle out of me….

“Bay Area UMie Is A Ball-Washer”- Gee, this locker-room zinger had me reminiscing of my old days walking the hallowed halls of Boston Latin. “Ball-Washer” was a favorite expression the scholars from Dorchester liked to chuck around-Hey Jack did you grow up in “The Dot”?
As an alum of both BLS and UMass as well, I endorse the above calling for objectivity and asking for more economic and budgetary analysis, long overdue in my view. Too much of this past decade has been assertions that have not panned out, in particular, that a sort of 'silent alum majority' would suddenly appear at Gillette, or caravans of fans will migrate to UMass on Saturdays. And, how many tickets are actually sold at full price, versus numerous discounts?

If FBS football is going to be a permanent 'loss leader', so be it, but hard metrics need to show solid benefits for maintaining this posture across other aspects of UMass.
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Re: Whip Gone?

Post by Steve81 » Fri Nov 23, 2018 1:04 pm

HUH!!

There are something like 14 sports required to Div I.

Tell me how many universities post a profit on 5 of those sports from well over 300 for BB and Football.

Universities, high schools do not provide sports for a good balance sheet.

So will patiently wait for a list of any universities that have a profit in 5 sports.

Only the P5 teams are capable of showing an over all profit and not all of them.

Since no more then 50 teams out of 350 can generate a profit, how much should students and taxpayers pay per capital as an acceptable amount.

Know the answer, what ever UMass spends with football is to much, that is your prism.
Prove me wrong give us a fair per capita lose and then show that most universities do not loss that much.
Go UMass!!

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Re: Whip Gone?

Post by dennisdent » Fri Nov 23, 2018 1:17 pm

Can't believe I'm writing this, but I have to agree with Jack on one thing--this has hijacked the topic on Whip Gone!

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