State of the Progam

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Re: State of the Progam

Post by Roadtrip » Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:06 pm

As someone who attended both UMass and Montana, I can say, without a doubt, that neither choice was influenced in any way by them being in I-AA. I think the entire argument that UMass needs to be in FBS football to be a successful university is delusional bullshit.

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Re: State of the Progam

Post by InnervisionsUMASS » Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:12 pm

Maybe I missed it, but I don't think anyone is stating that we NEED to be FBS to be a successful university.
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Re: State of the Progam

Post by e_parade » Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:19 pm

Roadtrip wrote: Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:06 pm As someone who attended both UMass and Montana, I can say, without a doubt, that neither choice was influenced in any way by them being in I-AA. I think the entire argument that UMass needs to be in FBS football to be a successful university is delusional bullshit.
The argument isn't "the university won't be successful without FBS football" and never has been.

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Re: State of the Progam

Post by eldonabe » Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:22 pm

ZooMass84 wrote: Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:33 am
eldonabe wrote: Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:22 am
ZooMass84 wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2019 5:17 pm
We're never going to scrap football. We have games scheduled out 10 years from now. Bottom line, it helps UMass be a national brand and we're up to 64th in the USNWR. It's just sad that its 8 years in now and we still suck. Really thought the second half of 2017 was special.

We could schedule games out 100 years and that would not stop you from scrapping football if that is what you had to do.

If the school USNWR really meant that much / made a difference, then the Ivy League Schools would be decimating all of college sports.

It is a really simple but very hard to accomplish formula:

- Win games [consistently]
- Look cool doing it by having state of the art facilities
- Be on TV - A LOT - see point #1
- Have a great "name brand" rivalry (or two)
- Pay your coaches

Getting into a conference first doesn't get you those things now, you need those first to get into a conference at this point in the game.

There are many, many teams in P5 conferences who still suck and have sucked for a very long time. Even if Umass could have the "success" of the bottom of the P5 barrel, they still wont get in, because all they represent is another mouth to feed and bring an ROI that is negative for the conference.

That is the reality of this. The B1G, SEC, ACC could care less about our USNWR......
Can I address some issues:

Scheduling games: those are actual contracts and would have to bought out with actual money. You just can't say "we don't play football anymore, so we're all set now"

Yes, USNWR criteria does not specifically mention football or FBS or whatever, BUT, we had over 42,000 applications this year. Are you telling me that number would have happened if we were never on TV or Vegas lines and still 1AA playing URI and UNH? C'mon.......many schools are shutting down dorms etc. like Univ of Missouri.

Also, the Ivys at one time (yes, a million years ago) WERE the standard and the Alabamas and Clemsons of their day. I know, in 1936 it all changed and the powers that be kicked them out.
I get your overall point. Having FBS football brings more exposure to the school. But the bottom line is that if the school was losing colossal money (see UConn) they would shutter it regardless of future schedule.... You don't just wind down a program with a long term plan. "OK fellas we are closing up shop in 5 years so don't schedule any more games while we play out the string" - it doesn't work that way. It will be interesting to see what UConn finally ends up doing.

UMass is a great school regardless of athletics (clearly) and they have been turning down 1,000's of applications annually for a long long time. They may get even more exposure and more interest if the signature sports get their act together, but they aren't hurting for applications or closing buildings despite pretty putrid athletics performances on the big stage.

Regardless of the criteria used to create the USNWR - that is not what is attracting athletes, that is for attracting students. Given how things have shaken out over the last 10 or so years, conferences could care less about your USNWR - they are looking to invite a school that increases the value of their Athletic Conference in the eyes of Television contracts. Anyone who thinks Umass is going to get into a P5 with really shitty sports but a top 10 - USNWR is smoking serious amounts of crack.


To get into that elusive club you have to have the whole package - THE most important of which includes Financial Value - Umass may never be able to make that particular math work - not in our lifetimes anyways. That is where people like Steve Maz are flat out dreaming.

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Re: State of the Progam

Post by McKinney » Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:29 pm

I don't understand this P5, Top 10 or bust nonsense.

Not to come off as elitist or whatever, but if the Eastern Michigans and Lousiana Monroes of the world can sponsor FBS football, then certainly state flagship of Massachusetts should be able to as well.
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Re: State of the Progam

Post by minutefanjsf » Tue Oct 01, 2019 6:53 pm

eldonabe wrote: Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:22 pm
ZooMass84 wrote: Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:33 am
eldonabe wrote: Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:22 am


We could schedule games out 100 years and that would not stop you from scrapping football if that is what you had to do.

If the school USNWR really meant that much / made a difference, then the Ivy League Schools would be decimating all of college sports.

It is a really simple but very hard to accomplish formula:

- Win games [consistently]
- Look cool doing it by having state of the art facilities
- Be on TV - A LOT - see point #1
- Have a great "name brand" rivalry (or two)
- Pay your coaches

Getting into a conference first doesn't get you those things now, you need those first to get into a conference at this point in the game.

There are many, many teams in P5 conferences who still suck and have sucked for a very long time. Even if Umass could have the "success" of the bottom of the P5 barrel, they still wont get in, because all they represent is another mouth to feed and bring an ROI that is negative for the conference.

That is the reality of this. The B1G, SEC, ACC could care less about our USNWR......
Can I address some issues:

Scheduling games: those are actual contracts and would have to bought out with actual money. You just can't say "we don't play football anymore, so we're all set now"

Yes, USNWR criteria does not specifically mention football or FBS or whatever, BUT, we had over 42,000 applications this year. Are you telling me that number would have happened if we were never on TV or Vegas lines and still 1AA playing URI and UNH? C'mon.......many schools are shutting down dorms etc. like Univ of Missouri.

Also, the Ivys at one time (yes, a million years ago) WERE the standard and the Alabamas and Clemsons of their day. I know, in 1936 it all changed and the powers that be kicked them out.
I get your overall point. Having FBS football brings more exposure to the school. But the bottom line is that if the school was losing colossal money (see UConn) they would shutter it regardless of future schedule.... You don't just wind down a program with a long term plan. "OK fellas we are closing up shop in 5 years so don't schedule any more games while we play out the string" - it doesn't work that way. It will be interesting to see what UConn finally ends up doing.

UMass is a great school regardless of athletics (clearly) and they have been turning down 1,000's of applications annually for a long long time. They may get even more exposure and more interest if the signature sports get their act together, but they aren't hurting for applications or closing buildings despite pretty putrid athletics performances on the big stage.

Regardless of the criteria used to create the USNWR - that is not what is attracting athletes, that is for attracting students. Given how things have shaken out over the last 10 or so years, conferences could care less about your USNWR - they are looking to invite a school that increases the value of their Athletic Conference in the eyes of Television contracts. Anyone who thinks Umass is going to get into a P5 with really shitty sports but a top 10 - USNWR is smoking serious amounts of crack.


To get into that elusive club you have to have the whole package - THE most important of which includes Financial Value - Umass may never be able to make that particular math work - not in our lifetimes anyways. That is where people like Steve Maz are flat out dreaming.
Media market matters a ton. If UMass can become a top g5 then P5 will come calling. We are more attractive than UConn and haven’t been black balled by other institutions.

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Re: State of the Progam

Post by econalum » Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:16 pm

Nope. econalum said that Athletics has nothing to do with those rankings. You're wrong. WRONG!

As always, thanks for 'sniping' IV.
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Re: State of the Progam

Post by econalum » Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:06 pm

Media market matters a ton. If UMass can become a top g5 then P5 will come calling. We are more attractive than UConn and haven’t been blackballed by other institutions.
New England is blessed with highly competitive pro sports teams, which drain away from the sports entertainment dollar. Couple that with almost all college games being streamed or on tv, unlike even 6 years ago, it means that couches are replacing tailgates. And with our weather, that will continue.

P5 is a dreamscape for UMass, especially if the California law allowing student-athlete compensation takes hold. Most likely, in 5 years we will have even more of a 'gladiator/professional' system for what might be now called the P5, and then 'everyone else'. We are close to that from TV ratings and interest points nationally right now.

FB is fun to watch. Hopefully, the non-P5 colleges will find a way to make it work financially. But when UMass has done literally nothing in 9-10 years and funded the program by primarily student fees, who attend the games in the 100's, not thousands, that is unsustainable. If I were in student government today, and I was in undergrad, I'd start bitching to state reps and senators.

That model now heads more toward the S&M model - getting paid for getting beaten up by P5 - a bad look for this U.

I'd rather UMass not appear to be a punch drunk hooker, lurching from FBS payday to payday, and getting terribly beaten.

That's humiliating to this rising top public University brand.
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Re: State of the Progam

Post by ZooMass84 » Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:37 pm

I think we are all on the same page: we are not dropping football, no matter how bad we are. For me, I like the exposure and like any fan, I like seeing my alma mater in the vegas odds, but this FBS football thing is all about the $$$$, not wins. I hate to say it, but we've sucked for 8 years and may always suck. College football is about recruiting and coaching, that's it. The top 10 schools have been powers since 1936.

Concerning the USNWR rankings, the vast majority of schools in the top 75 sponsor FBS football (not counting the Ivy League). I don't think its a coincidence.

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Re: State of the Progam

Post by econalum » Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:49 pm

Yes, it is a coincidence. Please provide data to the contrary, not personal views/assertions.

Any rankings are based on similar criteria as USNWR, except WSJ and PAYscale, which focus on mid-career salaries, which have in themselves biases against careers such as k-12 teaching, and towards engineering and business majors.

This board, representing a tiny/the tiniest/most small fraction of UMass grads/fans and has a HUGE lean toward Athletics as a driver of the UMass brand and reputation is not representative of the UMass alum base, especially women, who are probably 45-55% of total alums.

I am on campus as an alum volunteer teacher/advisor/debate judge in the classroom 2-3x per academic year.

Frankly, are you/any of you all meeting students outside of athletic contests? If you are, ask in your classes about the importance of FB/FBS and UMass.

FB, in particular, is a 'never been to a game' answer among juniors/seniors in Economics.

And, pick your major, how many could be engaged if most students don't show up, or leave before the half?

Add the remoteness/time wasted of the past Gillette games, we have lost a lot of potentially interested, now disengaged, seniors/graduates going towards 30,000+. Who actually thought that students would give up about 7-8 hours on a Saturday to attend a FB game? Stoopid.

In business/economics, we teach about 'sunk costs' and being realistic concerning the future, not trying to justify past investments. What is lost, is lost.
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Re: State of the Progam

Post by Jack » Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:41 am

^ Nearly three consecutive long winded self righteous off-topic inane anti-football rants from our resident debbie downer: econalum... this may be a new record !!! :roll: :roll: speaking of sunk costs and being lost...we beat Akron and get yet another complete shitshow from econalum.....

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Re: State of the Progam

Post by eldonabe » Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:51 am

Jack wrote: Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:41 am ^ Nearly three consecutive long winded self righteous off-topic inane anti-football rants from our resident debbie downer: econalum... this may be a new record !!! :roll: :roll: speaking of sunk costs and being lost...we beat Akron and get yet another complete shitshow from econalum.....
Easy Jack - we basically won the "Toilet Bowl" last week, and after a hopeful beating of UConn we will have established ourselves as #128 and that is just about it.

UMass football (right now - and for the last 8 years) has been nothing much more than a bad experiment. The Gillette thing was fucking stupid - not so much the need for something like that arrangement; but rather the numbers McCutcheon used to sell that idea as a good one. Most reasonable and rational people could have told you that the students were not going to support that and (shocking :shock: ) they didn't.

Unlike econ, however, I am still not arguing against football. I just think the expectations are pretty high and there are a lot of external factors (geography among them) that are very hard to overcome without possible (and likely) bankrupting the athletic department.


I do think Umass football will find its footing at some point. I am patient enough to wait for it, I just don't have a set date to expect it to happen by and I don't think there is a magic bullet (like high USNWR for example).

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Re: State of the Progam

Post by InnervisionsUMASS » Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:55 am

econalum wrote: Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:16 pm As always, thanks for 'sniping' IV.

It wouldn't be required if you stepped off the podium for once.
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Re: State of the Progam

Post by MJatUM » Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:16 am

econalum wrote: Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:06 pm If I were in student government today, and I was in undergrad, I'd start bitching to state reps and senators.
Well thank God you're not. When you attend UMass you know (roughly) what you're going to be paying/loaning.
econalum wrote: Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:06 pm That model now heads more toward the S&M model - getting paid for getting beaten up by P5 - a bad look for this U.

I'd rather UMass not appear to be a punch drunk hooker, lurching from FBS payday to payday, and getting terribly beaten.
If the last several HC hires hadn't turned out to be complete duds then maybe things would be different. Unfortunately, being a UMass fan we know we can't have nice things. In the abortion that this era has been so far, don't forget we've given scares to Florida in Gainesville and Mississippi State in Starkville. Not to mention having a ranked Temple team completely dead to rights at Gillette before throwing up all over ourselves, but that one wasn't a payday.

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Re: State of the Progam

Post by InnervisionsUMASS » Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:36 am

MJatUM wrote: Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:16 am If the last several HC hires hadn't turned out to be complete duds then maybe things would be different. Unfortunately, being a UMass fan we know we can't have nice things. In the abortion that this era has been so far, don't forget we've given scares to Florida in Gainesville and Mississippi State in Starkville. Not to mention having a ranked Temple team completely dead to rights at Gillette before throwing up all over ourselves, but that one wasn't a payday.

You forgot about Tennessee. If it wasn't for horrible play calling in a late series, we likely win that game and Tennessee cans their coach much sooner that season.


Bamford has essentially made Football budget neutral, or at least very close to that. If they can hit on a (this) coach, get some wins and get people to go to (and into) the games, they'll be making money each year. Econ's argument is essentially out the window now and hopefully moving forward.
Stop waiting for UMass to do something big and help UMass do something big. - Shades

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