Game 2 (2017) Coastal Carolina

Whip'ing the program back into shape.
NilesGold
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Re: Game 2 (2017) Coastal Carolina

Post by NilesGold » Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:59 pm

John McCutcheon doesn't get near enough criticism for the absolutely shit job he did hiring coaches at UMass.

Morris
Molnar
Whipple
Kellogg
Micheletto
Dawley

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Rolling Ridge
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Re: Game 2 (2017) Coastal Carolina

Post by Rolling Ridge » Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:04 pm

NilesGold wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:59 pm
John McCutcheon doesn't get near enough criticism for the absolutely shit job he did hiring coaches at UMass.

Morris
Molnar
Whipple
Kellogg
Micheletto
Dawley
This is what I was thinking the other day. McCutcheon was in over his head and made some dreadful decisions, particularly with football. In fairness, some of those hires, including the Whipple hire, did hold some promise. But my guess is Bamford would have gone in a different direction, or at least opened the field a bit wider and not been so parochial.

Ryan is going to have a tough decision to make between now and the end of the season. Whipple is the last major holdover from McCutcheon and it's clearly not working. He'll have to decide if it's fixable with Whipple. He's proven he'll make the move when the time is right, and I respect that he gave McCutcheon's coaches a chance to succeed. But I can't see keeping Whipple beyond this season, unless truly we have no better alternatives. And if that is true, then we're truly done - but I don't believe for one second that it is true. I'm putting my hopes on Bamford getting us the right hire and a brighter, but seemingly far distant future.

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Re: Game 2 (2017) Coastal Carolina

Post by Bay Area UMie » Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:10 am

MikeEsq wrote:
Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:36 pm
78 wrote:
Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:33 pm
Just to repeat. I picked UMass to win 42-21, but did say I would be kicking myself for making that prediction. I seriously am interested in hearing from guys like Jack and Stevemaz, because they are the real diehards. I can't see how even they don't have one foot off the bandwagon at this point.
And what about Bay Area UMie, who lit a few of us up last week? I'm sure we'll hear from him right around when next season starts.
I just read your comments directed to me. I am not hiding from anyone, avoiding this debate or wavering in my support of the 2017 football team.

I took exception to and still take exception to your inappropriate comments disparaging the UMass players (lacking “mental toughness”), suggesting the football coach is going to quit at year’s end and that our coach is incompetent (“the game has passed him by”). Current players and recruitment targets (and their parents) obviously visit this site and your comments demotivate and deflate team members and undermine on-going recruitment efforts.

IMO Whipple’s situation (inability to make us a very competitive program and ultimately generate more w’s in 3+ yrs ) is beyond game planning and game day decisions. It has been well documented that the operating conditions the program finds itself immersed in (no conference affiliation, deplorable 50-year old stadium, indifference from students/alums, New England region produces just 1% of all FBS talent, our football operating budget is a paltry $8m-SEC teams average $34m, ACC teams like BC average $28m and even the AAC conference, where we aspire to gain membership, football operating budgets are on average 2x/yr more than what we spend) leaves us at a huge competitive disadvantage. Take a guy like David Shaw from Stanford or Mark Dantonio from MSU and situate them at UMass under these sub-industry standard conditions and I have serious doubts that they produce a winner on the field.

I share the frustration with the on field results and I understand the natural, instinctive reactions to right the ship- “let’s get a new coach and fix this thing”. IMO this is a complicated situation and an important question Chancellor Subbaswamy and President Meehan need to probe prior to hiring another HC is-“Why has a coach like Mike Whipple with an accomplished resume not achieved success in transitioning UMass to the FBS level?” The facts are the school has committed $100m over the last 6 yrs to the transition and what is the return on investment or where has it left us? What do we specifically need to do and what are the additional financial commitments to turn this situation around and how does football fit within the university’s core mission? A few posters have suggested a complete exit strategy from football at any level but, how much would that drastic decision cost the school to break contractual game commitments?

Chancellor Subbaswamy is scheduled to be in San Francisco in late September for a few UMass alumni events. I plan on asking him some of these very tough, but important questions. It will be interesting to see how he responds.

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Re: Game 2 (2017) Coastal Carolina

Post by stevemaz » Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:46 am

I have one foot off the bandwagon and ready to jump if they lose Saturday. if Breneman plays there is no reason we should lose to ODU this week at home. For the record, I would have fired Whip last December if he refused to hire an offensive coordinator. Also, I am firmly on the bandwagon for the program and where it can and should be.. national Champs 2034.. eh maybe 2044.

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Re: Game 2 (2017) Coastal Carolina

Post by Rolling Ridge » Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:10 am

Bay Area UMie wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:10 am
IMO Whipple’s situation (inability to make us a very competitive program and ultimately generate more w’s in 3+ yrs ) is beyond game planning and game day decisions...

I share the frustration with the on field results and I understand the natural, instinctive reactions to right the ship- “let’s get a new coach and fix this thing”. IMO this is a complicated situation and an important question Chancellor Subbaswamy and President Meehan need to probe prior to hiring another HC is-“Why has a coach like Mike Whipple with an accomplished resume not achieved success in transitioning UMass to the FBS level?” The facts are the school has committed $100m over the last 6 yrs to the transition and what is the return on investment or where has it left us? What do we specifically need to do and what are the additional financial commitments to turn this situation around and how does football fit within the university’s core mission? A few posters have suggested a complete exit strategy from football at any level but, how much would that drastic decision cost the school to break contractual game commitments?
Interesting post. I agree with much of what you say, and I think these are the issues/questions that face UMass football.

But I still see a substantial amount of culpability for the on-field performance falling on the coaching staff. Lack of preparation, poor coaching decisions, poor game planning and management have cost us, and so far this season I don't see any hint of improvement from prior years in those areas. I think most of us here would accept that Whipple has recruited better and that our talent level has improved since the Molnar days. Those "in the know" associated with the football program keep insisting to me that we're "just about to turn the corner." Even at a national level, we are often tagged to win games (this game being an example). So it seems to me that the talent is there, but that it is not being deployed effectively. So yes, all those longer term questions are a factor and need to be addressed. But at some point, you have to hold the current coaching staff accountable for what is in their control.

As I said above, it's ultimately Ryan's decision, and I'll trust his judgement. If he agrees with your assessment that "no coach could have done a better job with this group," then I guess it is what it is. But I can't believe he isn't exploring options. Time will tell.

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Re: Game 2 (2017) Coastal Carolina

Post by minutefanjsf » Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:36 am

e_parade wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:33 pm
minutefanjsf wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:00 pm
KahunaK wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:27 pm
^^^^ Don Brown ditched us twice. He is dead to me.
Don Brown was turned down in favor of Whip. I saw literally the day after Whip was hired on a recruiting visit for BC. We didn't have a conversation, but he acknowledged my effort to say I wished he was in Amherst. So, I can't 100% say he was in the running because the response was purely body language. He aslo did not ditch us the first time. He was hired as a DC @ Maryland. He ditched Northeastern.
I know a relative of his quite well (went to UMass together). Don Brown was interested in coming back and we went with Whip over him.
That was the feeling I got from him. He can get kids to run through brick walls.

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Re: Game 2 (2017) Coastal Carolina

Post by MajBugman » Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:53 am

On a total aside. Maybe UMass' attendance isn't so bad after all. In their first ever FBS game for a program that has been an FCS powerhouse, located in the college sports crazy south, CC had 13,200 in attendance. Granted the game was against UMass.......
Raise the bar, do the minimum.

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Re: Game 2 (2017) Coastal Carolina

Post by minutefanjsf » Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:09 am

MajBugman wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:53 am
On a total aside. Maybe UMass' attendance isn't so bad after all. In their first ever FBS game for a program that has been an FCS powerhouse, located in the college sports crazy south, CC had 13,200 in attendance. Granted the game was against UMass.......
People in NE just need a few wins. We had over 20K for a game vs Miami OH at Gillette. I have way too many friends/alumni that just won't go unless there is any momentum. That's what makes this season even more troubling.

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Re: Game 2 (2017) Coastal Carolina

Post by eldonabe » Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:22 am

Bay Area UMie wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:10 am


I share the frustration with the on field results and I understand the natural, instinctive reactions to right the ship- “let’s get a new coach and fix this thing”. IMO this is a complicated situation and an important question Chancellor Subbaswamy and President Meehan need to probe prior to hiring another HC is-“Why has a coach like Mike Whipple with an accomplished resume not achieved success in transitioning UMass to the FBS level?” The facts are the school has committed $100m over the last 6 yrs to the transition and what is the return on investment or where has it left us? What do we specifically need to do and what are the additional financial commitments to turn this situation around and how does football fit within the university’s core mission? A few posters have suggested a complete exit strategy from football at any level but, how much would that drastic decision cost the school to break contractual game commitments?

Chancellor Subbaswamy is scheduled to be in San Francisco in late September for a few UMass alumni events. I plan on asking him some of these very tough, but important questions. It will be interesting to see how he responds.

If they are going to "probe" they may want to make sure they get his name right at least...... :roll:

The in game management (play calling) has been atrocious - and that may be a kind assessment. We all understand the old adage that the run game opens up the passing game but the stubbornness of which he tries to employ this has cost this team wins - Hawaii being the most recent example. When you have been effective moving the ball with certain plays keep running them until the defense stops you. Ford can throw the ball - you don;t have to throw it 35 yards down the field, you can do the Patriots moves and dink/dunk 4 yard bubble routes all fucking day long and those are as good as a run.

Special teams have been beyond atrocious - there has to be someone available out there who can kick a fucking football with some degree of reliability inside the 25 yard line. It is no secret why Umass leads the country in 4th down attempts. Their inability to kick a 30 yard field goal has cost them plenty of W's in Whips tenure here too....

I think it is really hard to lose an athlete to the point they quit - players play - nobody like to lose and any true player will make an effort to not lose. Unless they go off the rails and just do their own play calling, they are trying to do what they are told to do and it is not working - that IS on the coach(s).

I am not willing to go as far as to call him a bad hire, he may not have been the best hire (if in fact Brown was willing and able at the time) but there was nothing wrong in picking him.
In Matt McCall I trust!

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Re: Game 2 (2017) Coastal Carolina

Post by MJatUM » Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:15 am

Bay Area UMie wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:10 am
IMO Whipple’s situation (inability to make us a very competitive program and ultimately generate more w’s in 3+ yrs ) is beyond game planning and game day decisions. It has been well documented that the operating conditions the program finds itself immersed in (no conference affiliation, deplorable 50-year old stadium, indifference from students/alums, New England region produces just 1% of all FBS talent, our football operating budget is a paltry $8m-SEC teams average $34m, ACC teams like BC average $28m and even the AAC conference, where we aspire to gain membership, football operating budgets are on average 2x/yr more than what we spend) leaves us at a huge competitive disadvantage. Take a guy like David Shaw from Stanford or Mark Dantonio from MSU and situate them at UMass under these sub-industry standard conditions and I have serious doubts that they produce a winner on the field.
Just curious which one of these excuses you list above leads to our defense not being able to properly defend the read option ever since Whip started (and before, to be honest). They weren't facing Denard Robinson out there. IMO, it is probably that 1% of FBS talent come from New England. That is why the defense can't stop anyone. Or maybe it is the "deplorable 50-year old stadium." Maybe that is why.

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Re: Game 2 (2017) Coastal Carolina

Post by UMass87 » Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:49 am

^ the reason UMass can't stop the read is not only coaching - it's because UMass players are athletically inferior. Next time the UMass defense properly sets the edge will be the first time. OK, that's an exaggeration but the fact is that all successful football starts at the line of scrimmage and UMass at the line of scrimmage has been woeful (particularly in the second half of games) since the FBS move. IMO that's because there is a limited supply of truly athletic freaks who are big enough, quick enough, and smart enough to play the line in FBS football. Neither Whipple nor any other coach is going to win recruiting battles for those guys. I really don't believe Nick Saban could succeed at UMass.

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Re: Game 2 (2017) Coastal Carolina

Post by MikeEsq » Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:42 pm

Bay Area UMie wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:10 am
MikeEsq wrote:
Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:36 pm
78 wrote:
Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:33 pm
Just to repeat. I picked UMass to win 42-21, but did say I would be kicking myself for making that prediction. I seriously am interested in hearing from guys like Jack and Stevemaz, because they are the real diehards. I can't see how even they don't have one foot off the bandwagon at this point.
And what about Bay Area UMie, who lit a few of us up last week? I'm sure we'll hear from him right around when next season starts.
I just read your comments directed to me. I am not hiding from anyone, avoiding this debate or wavering in my support of the 2017 football team.

I took exception to and still take exception to your inappropriate comments disparaging the UMass players (lacking “mental toughness”), suggesting the football coach is going to quit at year’s end and that our coach is incompetent (“the game has passed him by”). Current players and recruitment targets (and their parents) obviously visit this site and your comments demotivate and deflate team members and undermine on-going recruitment efforts.

IMO Whipple’s situation (inability to make us a very competitive program and ultimately generate more w’s in 3+ yrs ) is beyond game planning and game day decisions. It has been well documented that the operating conditions the program finds itself immersed in (no conference affiliation, deplorable 50-year old stadium, indifference from students/alums, New England region produces just 1% of all FBS talent, our football operating budget is a paltry $8m-SEC teams average $34m, ACC teams like BC average $28m and even the AAC conference, where we aspire to gain membership, football operating budgets are on average 2x/yr more than what we spend) leaves us at a huge competitive disadvantage. Take a guy like David Shaw from Stanford or Mark Dantonio from MSU and situate them at UMass under these sub-industry standard conditions and I have serious doubts that they produce a winner on the field.

I share the frustration with the on field results and I understand the natural, instinctive reactions to right the ship- “let’s get a new coach and fix this thing”. IMO this is a complicated situation and an important question Chancellor Subbaswamy and President Meehan need to probe prior to hiring another HC is-“Why has a coach like Mike Whipple with an accomplished resume not achieved success in transitioning UMass to the FBS level?” The facts are the school has committed $100m over the last 6 yrs to the transition and what is the return on investment or where has it left us? What do we specifically need to do and what are the additional financial commitments to turn this situation around and how does football fit within the university’s core mission? A few posters have suggested a complete exit strategy from football at any level but, how much would that drastic decision cost the school to break contractual game commitments?

Chancellor Subbaswamy is scheduled to be in San Francisco in late September for a few UMass alumni events. I plan on asking him some of these very tough, but important questions. It will be interesting to see how he responds.
I applaud the fact that you came back to make these points, many of which are very thoughtful. But the fact remains that when kickoff occurs, the players and coaches are the ones falling short. The poster talking about special teams nailed it on the head. One of the greatest football coaches of all-time lives and works in the same state as our flagship university in Amherst. Ask him about the importance of special teams sometime. Whipple could not care less about them. The horrible results naturally flow from that.

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Re: Game 2 (2017) Coastal Carolina

Post by NilesGold » Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:55 pm

UMass87 wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:49 am
^ the reason UMass can't stop the read is not only coaching - it's because UMass players are athletically inferior.
I call bullshit. UMass lines were dominated on both sides by a 1st year FBS team. No way should that be happening if our coaches are doing their job well, including recruiting.

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Re: Game 2 (2017) Coastal Carolina

Post by MJatUM » Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:07 pm

^ Exactly. I'm not asking them to be Michigan's defense here, just to be at least respectable. The athletically inferior explanation goes out the window for me when we're talking about Coastal. I do agree that these are not blue chippers on the lines for UMass, but I can't recall a single time I have ever felt like the D-Line has been even OK. We have NEVER rushed the passer well and running QB's lick their chops when they see UMass on the schedule.

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Re: Game 2 (2017) Coastal Carolina

Post by 69MG » Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:47 pm

NilesGold wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:55 pm
UMass87 wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:49 am
^ the reason UMass can't stop the read is not only coaching - it's because UMass players are athletically inferior.
I call bullshit. UMass lines were dominated on both sides by a 1st year FBS team. No way should that be happening if our coaches are doing their job well, including recruiting.
I've probably posted this before, but an old saying is that "Games are won and lost in the trenches". Thus far, we have been pushed around on both sides of the ball. Either the talent level isn't what we thought it was, the coaching sucks or a combination of the two. Even taking into account that we were down 2 of our best D linemen CC should not have been able to run that easily on us.

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