A10 teams on the way down..Umass going up?

Anything and everything that is UMass Minutemen Basketball.
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Swampy
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Post by Swampy » Wed Jul 14, 2004 6:34 pm

frank, surely you're yankin' my crank here...

1991/92
30-5
A-10 Championship
Lose in Sweet Sixteen to a loaded KY team

Lou was a freshman
DK was a freshman

Harper has had a nice career in Euro
Jimmy Mac, Anton, Tony, Mikey and Will hung up the shoes early

Any other coach but St. John of Shutesbury NEVER has a season like that with that roster.

END OF STORY!

obg
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Post by obg » Wed Jul 14, 2004 6:57 pm

"Players do not get scholarships taken away from them if they underperform."

I don't want to nit pick, but that isn't quite true.
The bball scholarships are for one year. Many times when you hear that a kid is chosing to play elsewhere he has had his scholarship pulled by non-renewal. The kid doesn't go along he won't get a recommandation from his coach and that is the curse of death.
They may not be great, but they won't be boring!

FRDreams
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Post by FRDreams » Thu Jul 15, 2004 8:11 am

Is the player losing his scholarship because of academic reasons or performance on the court? Go Umass!

Used to be VOR
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Post by Used to be VOR » Thu Jul 15, 2004 8:21 am

OBG is right. Scholarships are technically year-by-year renewable agreements. Often times if a coach believes a kid does not belong, he simply "encourages" him to transfer. It is a dirty little secret, but it happens all the time.

Not saying it is right or wrong...just that it can and does happen.

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nale
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Post by nale » Thu Jul 15, 2004 8:41 am

Used to be VOR wrote: Ummm..excuse me for having a different opinion than you...if it is even that different.. This is a chicken or the egg argument. Does a player become great because of the coach..or does the coach and the program make the player great. I think Lou Roe or Marcus Camby would argue that they would have just as much success surrounded by the same players in another program.

My point (which you somehow chose to miss) was that a coach DOES make a difference. However, if you give a great Coach an average roster...while he may do marginally better than a lesser coach...he will not excel. What a great college coach does is build a program over the long haul to the point where he is in play for all of the top high school players available. In the end the point if this game is getting the best players.

I am of the belief that Jameer Nelson, Tim Duncan, or Marcus Camby would have been great players at UMass or at Vanderbilt.

Thank you for informing me on the inner workings of college basketball...after all I only work with college basketball coaches from all over D1 everyday in my job.
"Does a player become great because of the coach..or does the coach and the program make the player great."
You have this exactly right :lol: :P :wink:
Your chicken and egg example has two eggs. Its OK I think I know what you meant to say.
However the discussion was not about 'great' players or 'great' coaches.
The discussion was about Frank clueless statement that ""PLAYERS make a team win...not the coach.." . If you work with D1 coaches you must know that is not true.
No one is denying that there are players with great talent that would be good no matter who they play for. It's how a coach develops those players and merges them with the other players he has into a TEAM. You appear to talking about only the great players and the great coaches not college basketball in general as I am.
Here are some other points of disagrement.
"if you give a great Coach an average roster...while he may do marginally better than a lesser coach" Are you serious? A great coach can affect a team as much as a great player. " He may not get to the F4 but everything about the team would be more then marginally better.
"In the end the point if this game is getting the best players." Again
a terrible understanding of the game. If that was the point why would we play the games just rank the teams according the recruiting. The end point is the get the most out the the players you have. Yes you getting best players and getting the most out of them is the best situation. But simply getting the best players is meaningless. I hate to bring it up with you but Coach Lappas had some very good players at Nova, six NBA players I believe. If getting the players was the point he would still be there. The end point for Lappas was his teams were preceived to have underacheived based on the talent.

Of course you have a right to have having a different opinion than I do.
You have the right to think the world is flat if you want. I also have the p privilege to point out when I think you are mistaken.
My original point is that Franks comment was clueless. You found some truth in it. My view is simple: decent players with a good coach will beat good players with a lousy coach more often then not. You appear the think coaches become great when they recruit great players. I disagree. Your view is a coach is great when he wins I believe a coach is great when he get the most out of his players. My disagreement with you is not as big as mine with Frank.

GO UMASS!
Last edited by nale on Thu Jul 15, 2004 8:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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kdogg8173
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Post by kdogg8173 » Thu Jul 15, 2004 8:42 am

I am split down the middle when it comes to the player or coach controversy. I think a program definitely needs players. I mean if a player doesn't know how to box out yet, there's a problem. We can't blame all lack of fundamentals on the coach. If the players don't work hard themselves outside of practice on their game there won't be much of an improvement. We really can't blame that on the coach.

On the other hand, the coach does need to motivate the players. There were a ton of times that umass just didnt seem to be motivated to a full extent on the floor and most of that blame I leave to the coach. I love that video of Oklahoma St. last year that they showed during the final four where Eddie Sutton had the guys practicing in football gear. Now thats motivation and agressiveness!!

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Post by Used to be VOR » Thu Jul 15, 2004 8:47 am

Nale,

First off, you do not have to argue Lappas with me. I do not rank him as a coach who has ever gotten "the best" out of anyone. He has had talent in the past that underachieved. and I think the talent at UMass last year should have led to a better record.

Truthfully, I agree with most of what you said. A GREAT coach can make a huge difference in a team over the course of a season. But all I am trying to say is that a great coach really makes it all pay off (final 4 & national championships) through longevity where he consistently brings in top players.

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Post by nale » Thu Jul 15, 2004 8:59 am

kdogg8173 wrote:I am split down the middle when it comes to the player or coach controversy. I think a program definitely needs players. I mean if a player doesn't know how to box out yet, there's a problem. We can't blame all lack of fundamentals on the coach. If the players don't work hard themselves outside of practice on their game there won't be much of an improvement. We really can't blame that on the coach.
"We really can't blame that on the coach."
What is happening here ! Why are people who I have always assumed know basketball making these insane comments?
Of course we can blame the lack of fundamentals on the coach/coaching staff. The very foundation of coaching is to teach the fundamentals and to motivate the players to learn, practice, excute them.
That at its most basic is what coaching is.
If a player doesn't know how to box out you teach him. If he doesn't learn
you don't play him.
Yes we shouldn't blame the coach if a player misses a good shot or doesn't get a rebound or fails to excute at one point but lack of fundamentals!!!
"This is my dream job''

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kdogg8173
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Post by kdogg8173 » Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:10 am

Nale, you are acting as if Lappas does nothing in practice. Obviously he is teaching something in practice, if these kids can't pick it up, its some of their fault. If a player needs to have his hand completely held without taking any intiative himself to learn something such as boxing out,then he shouldnt be playing, and yes that is lappas' fault that he is either A. playing, or B. even at this school in the first place. But how can you not lay some of the blame on a player not picking up how to play the game? If you were a player would you not try as hard as hell to learn to play? I know i would, i wouldnt just sit back an expect the coaching staff to do everything for me. That would be laziness. But you are right that the coach should motivate to execute and play. But if a player doesn't motivate himself, then that is also a big problem.

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Post by FRDreams » Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:40 am

If the players don't pick it up it is his fault because he recruited them. If he was doing his job Lap would not be on the verge of termination. Go Umass!

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Post by Scott O » Thu Jul 15, 2004 10:04 am

FRDreams wrote:If the players don't pick it up it is his fault because he recruited them.
Exactly. And just because you show someone how to properly box out, does not mean they can then rebound. I think so much of rebounding is mental, ie, 1st you box out, then you need to want that ball more than anything else. The coach needs to infuse that mentality into the minds of his players. I saw too many lappases in play last year where you had to question the motivation of the team.
Retarded artistically. Idiotic in other respects.

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Muhammed Saeed al-Sahaf
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Post by Muhammed Saeed al-Sahaf » Thu Jul 15, 2004 11:28 am

obg wrote:"Players do not get scholarships taken away from them if they underperform."
"Hello, my name is Kyle, and this is my friend Willie."
Steve Lappas is the mightiest coach of all time!!! Death to all Anti-Lappas Spin Merchants who cannot see his greatness!!!!!!

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Post by Quinn » Thu Jul 15, 2004 11:55 am

obg wrote:"Players do not get scholarships taken away from them if they underperform."

I don't want to nit pick, but that isn't quite true.
The bball scholarships are for one year. Many times when you hear that a kid is chosing to play elsewhere he has had his scholarship pulled by non-renewal. The kid doesn't go along he won't get a recommandation from his coach and that is the curse of death.

http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0076500/combined

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Post by DS Bruce Robertson » Thu Jul 15, 2004 12:21 pm

VoxPop wrote:Evidence? You want Evidence oh ye criminal who is full of camel droppings and not much else?

Evidence: AA, Bowers, Freeman, Viggiano, Maxwell, Carrier, Lasme, Martin, Lasme, Chadwick, Big Deli, Lamoreaux and Lappas (260+ career victories).


The best looking team UMass has had since Mack left.
Before last season, last year's was the "best looking team UMass has had since Mack left" and look how that turned out. The roster is almost immaterial when the coach is as awful as Lappas.
You know, say what you will about America, 13 bucks still gets you a hell of a lot of mice.

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Post by DS Bruce Robertson » Thu Jul 15, 2004 12:27 pm

kdogg8173 wrote:Nale, you are acting as if Lappas does nothing in practice. Obviously he is teaching something in practice, if these kids can't pick it up, its some of their fault. If a player needs to have his hand completely held without taking any intiative himself to learn something such as boxing out,then he shouldnt be playing, and yes that is lappas' fault that he is either A. playing, or B. even at this school in the first place. But how can you not lay some of the blame on a player not picking up how to play the game? If you were a player would you not try as hard as hell to learn to play? I know i would, i wouldnt just sit back an expect the coaching staff to do everything for me. That would be laziness. But you are right that the coach should motivate to execute and play. But if a player doesn't motivate himself, then that is also a big problem.
Whoa, why are you bringing Bruiser in to this? Oh, you're not. You're just being hypocritical.
You know, say what you will about America, 13 bucks still gets you a hell of a lot of mice.

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