A10 teams on the way down..Umass going up?

Anything and everything that is UMass Minutemen Basketball.
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VoxPop
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Post by VoxPop » Wed Jul 14, 2004 5:55 am

Evidence? You want Evidence oh ye criminal who is full of camel droppings and not much else?

Evidence: AA, Bowers, Freeman, Viggiano, Maxwell, Carrier, Lasme, Martin, Lasme, Chadwick, Big Deli, Lamoreaux and Lappas (260+ career victories).


The best looking team UMass has had since Mack left.
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Post by bdance » Wed Jul 14, 2004 6:18 am

This team looks good on paper, but then I've been thinking that for the last 10 years. Hope springs external so I'm getting sucked in once again, but I don't think you can cite three players who haven't played a minute of d1 ball as evidence of anything. Not when the one constant excuse has been youth and inexperience. I seem to recall that line getting extended to include 2nd year players too. You also have too many Lasme's on your list.

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Post by obg » Wed Jul 14, 2004 7:00 am

" You also have too many Lasme's on your list."

Wishful thinking.
Also your post was much to logical to be on this board.
They may not be great, but they won't be boring!

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Muhammed Saeed al-Sahaf
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Post by Muhammed Saeed al-Sahaf » Wed Jul 14, 2004 8:03 am

I see.

But aren't those mostly the same players and coaches from the previous years? So if that is "evidence," wouldn't you be correct in saying you expect a terrible season?

Drawing conclusions--it is difficult!
Steve Lappas is the mightiest coach of all time!!! Death to all Anti-Lappas Spin Merchants who cannot see his greatness!!!!!!

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nale
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Post by nale » Wed Jul 14, 2004 8:30 am

frank da tank wrote: Anyways...PLAYERS make a team win...not the coach.....wake up guys...
Frank,
If you believe this you know less then nothing about NCAA basketball. That could rank as one of most ignorant statements ever posted here.
What little creditability you may have had concerning basketball is completly gone now.
D1 basketball is all about the coaches and the programs they put in place.
Certainly the top programs also get the best players but good coaches win
by getting the most out of whatever players they have and by helping decent players become good players.

I love your optimism and support of UMASS basketball but please don't try to discuss basketball issues. You are clueless in that department.

GO UMASS!
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Post by FRDreams » Wed Jul 14, 2004 9:06 am

frank da tank wrote:

Anyways...PLAYERS make a team win...not the coach.....wake up guys
I am awake and laughing at one of the most rediculous statements I have ever heard regarding college bball. I guess Texas Tech should have always been good because they have good players? They sucked and were nonames until one of the greatest coaches of all time comes in and makes them a tournament team WITH THE SAME PLAYERS. Coaches make the difference and we obviously lack them. Nale was right I like the optimism but winning takes more than throwing athletes on the court and hoping for the best.
Lappas has rebuilt this program and they are poised to have a very nice run and make some noise for the forseeable future including next season and beyond.
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Post by Used to be VOR » Wed Jul 14, 2004 9:12 am

While it is true that NCAA basketball is a coaches-oriented game. The fact is that these coaches become great because they are able to recruit great players. And once they have a succesful track record they are more able to get quality players ona regular basis. I think we all agree Calipari is a quality coach. However if Lou Roe had not been an "academic risk" (a lot of Big East schools backed off thinking he would not qualify), if Donta Bright had not been Prop 48, and Marcus Camby not fallen through the cracks until his senior year, Calipari would not be the revered figure he is in these parts.

That said a good coach has a better chance of finding these players. The two options here are not mutually exclusive. If you give Coach K an average roster, he will do better than most other coaches...but he will not win any national championships. Good coaches need (and often find and develop) good players. The way he stated it was stupid...but he does have a small point in the rest of the muck he posted.

frank da tank

Post by frank da tank » Wed Jul 14, 2004 10:56 am

Phil Martelli was a national coach of the year before he got Nelson and West...right????

Lets see Boeheim, Coach K, Roy Williams coach in the NEC or America east......

Common guys...get serious....ask most NCAA coaches, and they will all teall you...you need players to win....

Jerry Tarkanian.....always said....my assistants are paid to get me players..if they can't..then they're gone........and I've met the tark at several final four's.....

I agree that there are great coaches out there...Bobby Knight being one of them.....but everyone knows that players make THE difference....

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Post by LS71 » Wed Jul 14, 2004 11:02 am

frank da tank wrote:Lappas had no talent when he got here
Right you are…he must have used it all up at Manhattan and Villanova. He may have 264 career wins as a coach, but only 34 of those wins have come at UMass. But, 54 of his 225 losses have piled up at since he's been here.
But, according to you…"PLAYERS make a team win...not the coach.....". By your reasoning then the players that this coach has brought to UMass can't be very good. How else can the unimpressive record of 34-53 be explained? Either the players aren't very good or the coach isn't very good, which is it? You can't have it both ways.
VoxPop wrote:UMass will kick ass next season regardless of what a few people think the A10 strength will be on a message board in July.

Lappas has rebuilt this program…
I seem too recall similar posts on a message board LAST July…and August and September and October… What happened?
VoxPop wrote:The best looking team UMass has had since Mack left.
And, we all know that looks isn't everything. :wink:

Look, nothing would make me happier than to see UMass enjoy a winning season with a trip to the NCAA's. However, I have to temper my hope and my optimisim with the reality of the last three seasons. All I have to go on is the past performance of Lappas' teams here. So, I'm taking a wait and see approach to the upcoming season rather than letting myself get carried away with cock-eyed, pie-in-the-sky optimism. Just because I want them to win, doesn't mean that somehow the players are all suddenly All-America candidates and the coach is suddenly John Wooden.
"Win without boasting, lose without crying." -- Julius Erving

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Post by Scott O » Wed Jul 14, 2004 12:22 pm

frank da tank wrote:
Anyways...PLAYERS make a team win...not the coach.....wake up guys...

If Coach K coaches UMass last yr...you are telling me we win the A10?? Yeah ok......

Players win...thats the bottom line....
Based on the talent we had last year, a lot of people had us picked to compete for the A10 East. The coach was not albe to do his part. I hope he does this year.
Retarded artistically. Idiotic in other respects.

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Post by Scott O » Wed Jul 14, 2004 12:37 pm

frank da tank wrote:Phil Martelli was a national coach of the year before he got Nelson and West...right????

Lets see Boeheim, Coach K, Roy Williams coach in the NEC or America east......

Common guys...get serious....ask most NCAA coaches, and they will all teall you...you need players to win....

Jerry Tarkanian.....always said....my assistants are paid to get me players..if they can't..then they're gone........and I've met the tark at several final four's.....

I agree that there are great coaches out there...Bobby Knight being one of them.....but everyone knows that players make THE difference....
1)No one expected St. Joes to have the season they had last year. Hence, coach of the yr honors.

2)I have to assume that Boeheim, Coach K, Roy Williams all worked their way up to where they are by coaching in conferences similar to the NEC and proved they were winners. Our coach has been forced out of a top tier conference down a rung to the A10 - he couldn't win when it counted in a big conf. Sure you need players to win, but you gotta motivate them, teach them, make them believe in you and the program (like the above mentioned coaches.)

3)I bet Tark is on some message board somewhere telling everyone that he's met frank the tank at several final 4's.
Retarded artistically. Idiotic in other respects.

frank da tank

Post by frank da tank » Wed Jul 14, 2004 12:51 pm

No Tark was actually at a restaurant on the riverwalk with 2 hot 25yr old chicks......having a great time.....

Gotta love the Tark..........

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Post by nale » Wed Jul 14, 2004 2:40 pm

Used to be VOR wrote:While it is true that NCAA basketball is a coaches-oriented game. The fact is that these coaches become great because they are able to recruit great players. And once they have a succesful track record they are more able to get quality players ona regular basis. I think we all agree Calipari is a quality coach. However if Lou Roe had not been an "academic risk" (a lot of Big East schools backed off thinking he would not qualify), if Donta Bright had not been Prop 48, and Marcus Camby not fallen through the cracks until his senior year, Calipari would not be the revered figure he is in these parts.

That said a good coach has a better chance of finding these players. The two options here are not mutually exclusive. If you give Coach K an average roster, he will do better than most other coaches...but he will not win any national championships. Good coaches need (and often find and develop) good players. The way he stated it was stupid...but he does have a small point in the rest of the muck he posted.
Coaches do NOT become great because they recruit good players.
They become great because they get the most out of whatever players they have. They develop team and personal skills for their players and have good game plan and court presence.
Then because they are good at that they attrack better players.
Now I know why you and frank cannot have a real discussion about UMASS basketball. You just don't understand how college basketball works. Roe, Bright,Camby,Harper etc became good college players on great teams BECAUSE of the COACHING they recieved at UMASS.
Cal would have won with whatever players he got, maybe not a F4 but he
coached his way to the top.
Good coaches know how to teach and inspire players to get the most of of their talent. Good coaches teach players how to play as a team.
Of course you need talent to win a national championship but that is not the only measure of a good coach.
Yes of course getting players with talent makes things easier but college basketball is about coaching.
Talent is simply potential a good coach has to make the players and team reach or exceed their potential.
In any case Frank did not said anything about 'great' or 'good' coaches.
He said ' "PLAYERS make a team win...not the coach.." That is as wrong as you can possibly get. The only point he made is that he is clueless.
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Post by Used to be VOR » Wed Jul 14, 2004 2:50 pm

nale wrote:Now I know why you and frank cannot have a real discussion about UMASS basketball. You just don't understand how college basketball works.
Ummm..excuse me for having a different opinion than you...if it is even that different.. This is a chicken or the egg argument. Does a player become great because of the coach..or does the coach and the program make the player great. I think Lou Roe or Marcus Camby would argue that they would have just as much success surrounded by the same players in another program.

My point (which you somehow chose to miss) was that a coach DOES make a difference. However, if you give a great Coach an average roster...while he may do marginally better than a lesser coach...he will not excel. What a great college coach does is build a program over the long haul to the point where he is in play for all of the top high school players available. In the end the point if this game is getting the best players.

I am of the belief that Jameer Nelson, Tim Duncan, or Marcus Camby would have been great players at UMass or at Vanderbilt.

Thank you for informing me on the inner workings of college basketball...after all I only work with college basketball coaches from all over D1 everyday in my job.

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Post by FRDreams » Wed Jul 14, 2004 3:16 pm

The coach recruits, teaches, and dictates the direction of the program. He is the person who gets fired if the team underperforms. Players do not get scholarships taken away from them if they underperform. The coach does everything but put the ball in the hoop and should be the sole reason for a team winning and losing. Winning brings in money for the school which allows the team to re-invest the money into the program and make it more attractive to prospective players. It is not that difficult of a concept to grasp. This is why are great coach is on hotest of seats right now because the administration knows there is talent here and we stink. So to Lap and his supporters I say don't sing it bring it. I have heard too much talk about results and zero in 3 yrs. Go Zoomass!

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